1 00:00:00,284 --> 00:00:28,873 cool could you really like this question will be art or a good one against this one art I don't know I don't I I'm how are you interpreted in with it for me are is a subjective manifestation cell what about are people with you yeah I wish that said shit all right well that's it you ask it all into it go ahead ask again okay lonely and carefully 2 00:00:29,326 --> 00:00:31,969 How art... I'm going to use this same question. 3 00:00:33,851 --> 00:00:34,472 That's the idea. 4 00:00:34,532 --> 00:00:35,813 Go for it. 5 00:00:36,094 --> 00:00:40,579 How art is interpreted in Buddhism? 6 00:00:40,599 --> 00:00:43,522 For me, art is a subjective manifestation of the self. 7 00:00:43,982 --> 00:00:45,845 But what about art in Buddhism? 8 00:00:46,285 --> 00:00:47,426 Okay, and one more question. 9 00:00:47,606 --> 00:00:48,808 There is no self, right? 10 00:00:53,433 --> 00:00:56,296 I don't know. 11 00:00:56,316 --> 00:00:57,898 It doesn't really apply. 12 00:00:58,402 --> 00:01:00,665 It's not a very good question, that's all. 13 00:01:01,245 --> 00:01:10,396 You know, experience is not self, and everything that arises is not self, so you could say. 14 00:01:10,456 --> 00:01:14,020 But, you know, there is no anything. 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,403 Entities are not a part of reality. 16 00:01:17,824 --> 00:01:20,688 Something arises, therefore it exists, or therefore it's real. 17 00:01:20,708 --> 00:01:27,075 Well, I know what the author meant, really, because you have your personality, and you have your expressions. 18 00:01:27,646 --> 00:01:30,009 your work become your expression. 19 00:01:30,911 --> 00:01:39,463 Yeah, so it's a manifestation of one's self in that sense, one's being or one's state at that time. 20 00:01:39,503 --> 00:01:44,851 And it can be, in that sense, it can show you things about yourself that you didn't know. 21 00:01:44,871 --> 00:01:56,387 And it can show people things that are far more profound than just, say, looking in someone's eyes or watching someone's superficial behavior, especially since we put on such airs, right? 22 00:01:56,570 --> 00:02:26,577 we all look like ordinary people but who knows what's going on oh and can be a serial killer for all we know on the buddha right can be a buddha for all we know we don't know what's going on inside people's minds depends on what you think art is of course art can bring out some of these inner workings so certainly i would i would give it that 23 00:02:27,856 --> 00:02:56,513 expression music as well but you know there's that other aspect of it that is the addiction aspect or the attraction aspect so you become addicted to these states the work itself is interesting especially from the point of view of a Buddhist or someone who's looking objectively at it to see what's going on in someone's mind for example psychologists use art 24 00:02:56,898 --> 00:02:57,639 art therapy. 25 00:02:57,679 --> 00:03:01,984 My aunt is a leader in art therapy in the world, apparently. 26 00:03:04,227 --> 00:03:08,752 She's a PhD at Loyola Marymount and she was one of the pioneers in art therapy. 27 00:03:10,234 --> 00:03:18,163 And so you can use it in that way, but the act of making art, on the other hand, 28 00:03:18,295 --> 00:03:33,852 making music, for example, but art in general, even if it's not just the addiction to pleasure as it is generally in music, or the addiction to these strong emotions, it's addiction to the states, addiction to self, to whatever it is that makes up yourself. 29 00:03:33,973 --> 00:03:38,057 Whatever is going on inside, you become intoxicated by it quite easily. 30 00:03:39,819 --> 00:03:45,906 And so artists can be fairly egotistical and self-absorbed 31 00:03:46,645 --> 00:03:55,995 not necessarily in the way you think of it, but very much interested in the self, and interested in who they are, and I am this sort of person, and I am that sort of person. 32 00:03:57,156 --> 00:04:06,346 Maybe that's a gross generalization, but... Well, because all artists looking for the answer, who am I, they want to define themselves through this. 33 00:04:10,090 --> 00:04:16,517 And so, for this person to clarify, because... 34 00:04:16,818 --> 00:04:20,662 This is not the work you see. 35 00:04:21,022 --> 00:04:23,845 It's a mirror of your mind. 36 00:04:24,225 --> 00:04:25,206 It's not yourself. 37 00:04:25,766 --> 00:04:28,589 There's no such thing as self. 38 00:04:28,609 --> 00:04:30,231 It's just what you think, really. 39 00:04:30,251 --> 00:04:39,479 So there's nothing wrong with the art itself, and it can be interesting for other people, but the act of creating art is suspect. 40 00:04:39,499 --> 00:04:41,781 Oh, yeah. 41 00:04:41,802 --> 00:04:45,525 So the act of creating, it's negative, is it? 42 00:04:46,180 --> 00:04:47,622 Well, it's dangerous. 43 00:04:47,642 --> 00:04:51,329 It's subject to problems. 44 00:04:51,609 --> 00:04:54,634 I mean, obviously, taking a paintbrush, an elephant can paint them. 45 00:04:55,335 --> 00:05:00,404 In Thailand, the elephants make pictures of flowers with their trunks. 46 00:05:00,464 --> 00:05:06,194 So there's nothing intrinsically wrong with making art. 47 00:05:06,214 --> 00:05:08,798 But when it becomes art, there's something there, right? 48 00:05:09,259 --> 00:05:10,421 You're putting something into it. 49 00:05:10,441 --> 00:05:11,142 You're putting in 50 00:05:11,527 --> 00:05:24,164 emotive state into it, or something into it, which is generally based on addiction, attachment to either self or emotion, and so on. 51 00:05:24,184 --> 00:05:25,005 There's the danger there. 52 00:05:26,607 --> 00:05:30,513 The other thing you might say is it's an inexact science. 53 00:05:30,893 --> 00:05:34,458 Art is not an objective. 54 00:05:34,478 --> 00:05:36,100 It's very, very subjective, right? 55 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:51,379 What do you think about using art as a tool and use reality as a subject for your art to investigate reality? 56 00:05:51,739 --> 00:05:52,580 I understand that. 57 00:05:53,001 --> 00:05:54,543 I just think it's inexact. 58 00:05:54,563 --> 00:05:55,804 I mean, why not use mindfulness? 59 00:05:56,165 --> 00:05:57,386 Much more reliable. 60 00:05:58,428 --> 00:06:02,593 That's what I was trying to get at just now, is that the inexactitude of it is... 61 00:06:03,046 --> 00:06:04,849 means that it's very easy to get off track. 62 00:06:04,869 --> 00:06:06,252 You don't really know where it's leading you. 63 00:06:06,292 --> 00:06:20,236 You can be all touchy-feely about it, but you don't really know what it's... And you get a sense of what it's doing to you, but it's... You know, the word art is loaded with subjectivity and inexactitude. 64 00:06:21,117 --> 00:06:27,889 So to get some... To get into going in a specific direction, it's like driving... 65 00:06:30,265 --> 00:06:32,387 driving a car with poor alignment or something. 66 00:06:32,427 --> 00:06:38,133 No, it's like driving a car without touching the steering wheel. 67 00:06:38,613 --> 00:06:44,339 If you are driving a car with your knees or something, it's not very easy to stay on the road. 68 00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:47,042 Yeah, I understand that. 69 00:06:47,502 --> 00:06:59,614 We don't have many examples of art which is quite, no seriously, we don't have much example that we could say it's actually beneficial. 70 00:07:00,202 --> 00:07:02,467 Well, they do use it. 71 00:07:02,908 --> 00:07:07,558 Psychologists use it, and therapists use it, and they seem to have good results. 72 00:07:08,801 --> 00:07:11,988 But good results is subjective as well. 73 00:07:12,228 --> 00:07:13,431 What do you mean by good results? 74 00:07:13,471 --> 00:07:15,115 Do people become enlightened making art? 75 00:07:15,155 --> 00:07:19,003 I would say no, or rarely if they do. 76 00:07:20,350 --> 00:07:23,454 I haven't heard of it. 77 00:07:23,474 --> 00:07:33,367 But the results they get is they come to in tune with themselves and become, you know, if anything, become more self, more... Centered. 78 00:07:35,009 --> 00:07:40,877 Not centered, but self-assured, more... You know, people are all on about being confident and so on. 79 00:07:41,678 --> 00:07:44,341 Confident can be very dangerous, as we were talking about earlier. 80 00:07:44,722 --> 00:07:47,726 Sometimes it's better to not be sure of yourself, like Socrates, for example. 81 00:07:49,548 --> 00:07:49,648 Yeah. 82 00:07:51,333 --> 00:07:53,936 Yeah, that's right, yeah. 83 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:59,043 Someone says, art is the root of artificial, which from Buddha's point is not a very beneficial thing. 84 00:07:59,924 --> 00:08:03,269 No, art is actually creating an illusion, right? 85 00:08:03,589 --> 00:08:07,714 I would say art has got much more to do. 86 00:08:07,734 --> 00:08:08,515 Not necessarily. 87 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:10,959 It's like writing a letter, for example. 88 00:08:11,339 --> 00:08:15,084 If I write a paper, I could be talking about ultimate reality. 89 00:08:15,144 --> 00:08:21,272 If I make a piece of art, I could be expressing a feeling or a part of myself with it. 90 00:08:21,725 --> 00:08:23,587 It's a communication, really. 91 00:08:23,627 --> 00:08:25,570 Art is communication. 92 00:08:25,750 --> 00:08:26,331 It's a medium. 93 00:08:27,632 --> 00:08:35,302 Yeah, but expression is a matter of your personal feelings, what you're going to express you. 94 00:08:35,763 --> 00:08:43,192 Is satisfaction going to express yourself? 95 00:08:45,174 --> 00:08:49,740 Because if you're looking for satisfaction, 96 00:08:50,581 --> 00:09:16,909 then that's the one part of expression the other is like just to show your emotions like anger that's another thing like you know if you're angry or something you draw you express yourself someone says you can show a manifestation of the Buddha in art you can show a manifestation of Buddha to help someone realize something 97 00:09:17,817 --> 00:09:20,281 Yeah, I think that's the point I was making. 98 00:09:20,321 --> 00:09:31,638 It is a communication, but I'm skeptical because it's not really just a communication. 99 00:09:31,698 --> 00:09:39,450 The medium is so overwhelming because you've defined it as art. 100 00:09:40,191 --> 00:09:45,900 If you write, you know, why aren't you using letters, something that is very exact and is communicating a meaning? 101 00:09:47,247 --> 00:09:59,404 art, the whole definition of art is to evoke something beyond just an understanding of what you're trying to say. 102 00:09:59,424 --> 00:10:11,061 If you want to get the point across, I'm suspicious that inherent in art is some emotive 103 00:10:12,273 --> 00:10:40,660 intent to evoke a response which I would tend to think is a negative thing as opposed to just evoke understanding I'm skeptical that you could look at a painting and realize wow that's what the Buddha meant or I would say it could no longer be called art it would have to be called simply communication 104 00:10:41,433 --> 00:10:47,663 I don't think art is capable, in my meaning of the word, of objective communication. 105 00:10:48,384 --> 00:10:52,149 But I'm sure many people disagree with that. 106 00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:52,911 Yeah. 107 00:10:52,931 --> 00:10:56,616 I don't know what kind of art this person is talking about in question. 108 00:10:59,381 --> 00:11:00,222 But it really is art. 109 00:11:00,783 --> 00:11:04,829 It wouldn't be art if it was really a communication. 110 00:11:06,311 --> 00:11:10,157 No, I think it's everything but not communication, really. 111 00:11:11,437 --> 00:11:13,720 If you've got something to say, just say it. 112 00:11:16,283 --> 00:11:17,164 Why are you going to draw? 113 00:11:17,985 --> 00:11:23,072 I think the fact that it becomes art is not a positive thing from a Buddhist point of view. 114 00:11:23,132 --> 00:11:40,735 But if you study reality, like anatomy... From an insight meditation point of view, what you might say is that when you're dealing with complex individuals who aren't meditating yet, 115 00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:45,674 then sure, it can be incredibly beneficial on a worldly level. 116 00:11:46,215 --> 00:11:54,063 Dealing with kids, for example, who have been abused, using art to help them to cope with their emotions is great. 117 00:11:54,083 --> 00:11:55,945 It's very helpful, very useful. 118 00:11:57,246 --> 00:12:03,293 So I'm just thinking technically, deep, deep down, it's got some problem to it. 119 00:12:03,333 --> 00:12:07,397 But I think you'd have to admit that 120 00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:18,870 even in the example of the Buddha image, Buddha images could be considered to be a type of art, or they're very closely related to, I think, what we're talking about as art. 121 00:12:19,351 --> 00:12:25,238 And when you see a Buddha image, when a meditator, for example, sees a Buddha image, it can be incredibly inspiring. 122 00:12:27,020 --> 00:12:34,508 Maybe that's not such a good example. 123 00:12:34,728 --> 00:12:37,992 Yeah, I wouldn't talk about how people... 124 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,083 react to art. 125 00:12:40,624 --> 00:12:43,909 It's just not about what art is, how it relates to his art. 126 00:12:44,309 --> 00:12:45,972 The people doesn't matter, really. 127 00:12:46,232 --> 00:12:48,015 It's just not... Oh, be careful. 128 00:12:48,616 --> 00:12:58,912 I mean, yeah, it's just... It's a marketing thing that you go to museum... Exactly, yes. 129 00:12:59,373 --> 00:12:59,954 Be careful. 130 00:12:59,974 --> 00:13:02,097 There's artists out there who are going to tear you apart. 131 00:13:02,117 --> 00:13:02,618 Of course. 132 00:13:03,299 --> 00:13:05,903 Everybody who knows history of art 133 00:13:06,153 --> 00:13:13,923 They know that the Catholic Church funded most of the artists. 134 00:13:14,664 --> 00:13:16,727 They were making the art for money. 135 00:13:19,771 --> 00:13:22,535 So that was just a marketing thing, really. 136 00:13:22,975 --> 00:13:29,904 An artist will tell you they don't do it for the money, or they do it... We're talking about Buddhist artists here. 137 00:13:29,944 --> 00:13:34,911 We're asking the question of whether a Buddhist artist is actually... 138 00:13:35,836 --> 00:13:39,860 capable of teaching Buddhism through art, basically. 139 00:13:40,741 --> 00:13:46,948 No, I think it's just a really bad concept. 140 00:13:46,968 --> 00:13:48,049 Yeah, I think it's a bad idea. 141 00:13:48,309 --> 00:13:49,671 But what about for kids? 142 00:13:50,171 --> 00:13:51,533 What about kids who have been abused? 143 00:13:51,613 --> 00:13:53,095 How do you bring them to Buddhism? 144 00:13:53,115 --> 00:13:55,137 Oh, maybe by cartoons, right? 145 00:13:55,837 --> 00:13:58,340 Well, what's better about cartoons than art? 146 00:13:58,460 --> 00:14:02,585 Why isn't art a valid form of communication as well? 147 00:14:02,885 --> 00:14:05,708 Yeah, I noticed the clocks downstairs were different. 148 00:14:06,481 --> 00:14:10,928 Especially for the kids themselves. 149 00:14:11,008 --> 00:14:15,675 If they create art, sometimes it helps them to recognize what it's like. 150 00:14:15,695 --> 00:14:16,636 I mean, that's another thing. 151 00:14:17,257 --> 00:14:19,580 It can help you to recognize. 152 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:31,277 I remember writing poetry as a means of understanding my feelings on something. 153 00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:34,362 I just don't think that in the long term, 154 00:14:35,287 --> 00:14:39,813 you know, on the path to enlightenment, I think it is something that you have to give up eventually. 155 00:14:40,594 --> 00:14:54,734 But in the beginning, there's some, you know, it can still be used, especially for people who are addicted to that, who are, you know, like children, who are attracted to that sort of thing, and who would react to it and would be engaged in it. 156 00:14:54,754 --> 00:15:01,723 Like, if you've got kids to just sit down and practice meditation, very difficult most of the time. 157 00:15:02,725 --> 00:15:04,467 But if you have them paint a picture about 158 00:15:05,375 --> 00:15:13,183 their feelings, for example, or whatever art therapists do, you probably have to go a lot further to help them to understand their feelings. 159 00:15:14,003 --> 00:15:32,361 So I think... One thing, when you are, if you are kind of like creating art, let's say painting or drawing, and you kind of like, your mind comes into state of sort of concentration 160 00:15:34,855 --> 00:15:36,177 and freedom. 161 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:40,723 So how you... is it delusion? 162 00:15:41,864 --> 00:15:44,408 Is it actually, like, is it bad? 163 00:15:44,848 --> 00:15:45,589 Is it positive? 164 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:49,314 How do you think? 165 00:15:49,334 --> 00:15:52,018 Sorry, is what possible? 166 00:15:52,038 --> 00:15:57,545 Yeah, it's like people... Well, you can describe the state when you're creating your mind. 167 00:15:58,166 --> 00:16:02,972 Creating... If you are creating an art... 168 00:16:04,066 --> 00:16:12,339 that you are in sort of the state of freedom, like you can express yourself, right? 169 00:16:14,703 --> 00:16:18,969 So do you think that's... Expressing yourself is not the path. 170 00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:22,815 This is a fallacy of modern psychology that we don't agree with. 171 00:16:23,897 --> 00:16:31,609 Think of the basic principle of quantum physics, or of the Heisenberg... Let's say quantum physics or the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. 172 00:16:32,163 --> 00:16:34,565 When you act, you're already changing it. 173 00:16:34,845 --> 00:16:41,231 When you express your feeling, you're already changing that feeling, or you're creating that feeling. 174 00:16:41,291 --> 00:16:57,286 How do we know that when we put together this piece of art based on our feelings, we're not actually augmenting and reinforcing and actually even molding and shaping that feeling? 175 00:16:57,606 --> 00:16:59,368 How do we know that that's really there? 176 00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:03,615 We don't, because it's not an exact investigation. 177 00:17:03,955 --> 00:17:04,636 It's art. 178 00:17:05,517 --> 00:17:06,959 I mean, the word says it all, really. 179 00:17:08,301 --> 00:17:10,103 Yeah, I say the wrong question. 180 00:17:10,223 --> 00:17:11,645 It's like, maybe not expression. 181 00:17:12,226 --> 00:17:17,352 Because expression is something like you creating your mind. 182 00:17:17,552 --> 00:17:24,661 But what I meant is that you are in sort of harmony. 183 00:17:25,102 --> 00:17:26,444 You know what I mean? 184 00:17:26,464 --> 00:17:28,326 Like, you feel like you're in harmony. 185 00:17:29,774 --> 00:17:31,015 And what is it? 186 00:17:31,296 --> 00:17:31,957 Is it delusion? 187 00:17:32,077 --> 00:17:35,381 I mean, I heard, I experienced it myself. 188 00:17:36,041 --> 00:17:41,888 I heard about other people, like, if you kind of like, what do they call it? 189 00:17:42,709 --> 00:17:53,142 They call it some sort of, you know, that you have to find a point in your life that's going to give you some sort of happiness or something like that. 190 00:17:55,084 --> 00:17:56,085 What do you think about it? 191 00:17:56,707 --> 00:18:00,772 You're talking about the harmony that comes from art? 192 00:18:00,792 --> 00:18:02,495 Do people feel like they get something out of it? 193 00:18:02,515 --> 00:18:05,679 Yeah, like the process of making art. 194 00:18:05,719 --> 00:18:13,369 The output is not really important. 195 00:18:14,851 --> 00:18:15,852 The process is important. 196 00:18:16,373 --> 00:18:18,095 Well, but see, that's the thing. 197 00:18:18,595 --> 00:18:22,140 As soon as you say that, you're placing a value judgment on an experience. 198 00:18:22,964 --> 00:18:26,148 To me, that's the whole problem with art. 199 00:18:26,168 --> 00:18:42,667 The word art to me is so loaded with value judgment and subjectivity as opposed to seeing experiences for what they are that I can't help but feel like it's got its inherent problems. 200 00:18:42,927 --> 00:18:45,390 If you say it can be useful as a tool, well, fine. 201 00:18:46,351 --> 00:18:48,674 There can be benefit to it, but that's how it is. 202 00:18:48,754 --> 00:18:50,356 Karma is not always white or black. 203 00:18:50,656 --> 00:18:51,958 Sometimes it's white and black. 204 00:18:53,052 --> 00:18:58,599 So someone asks, do you think we should all give up all forms of art and music? 205 00:19:00,341 --> 00:19:08,852 I mean, on a level of 1 to 10, art and music are not very high on the list of things that you have to give up. 206 00:19:11,115 --> 00:19:12,617 But if you can, power to you. 207 00:19:12,657 --> 00:19:14,700 It's a wonderful, liberating experience. 208 00:19:14,740 --> 00:19:20,247 It's an empowering thing to be free, to not need such crutches. 209 00:19:21,408 --> 00:19:22,890 Most people, even when they hear that, 210 00:19:23,579 --> 00:19:29,307 that the kind of things that we're saying become quite upset as a result. 211 00:19:29,508 --> 00:19:32,833 Their idea of what is important is offended. 212 00:19:32,873 --> 00:19:50,599 The idea that music might be unbeneficial can make people quite upset, which of course is a sign that there is attachment there, that there is a 213 00:19:51,423 --> 00:19:56,688 a limiting factor there or a crippling factor there. 214 00:19:57,709 --> 00:20:02,754 Because when someone talks against the things that you like, you become upset. 215 00:20:02,834 --> 00:20:09,961 Now, for a person who doesn't need music to make them happy, it doesn't really matter what people say about music. 216 00:20:10,021 --> 00:20:11,543 People can say it's great or it's horrible. 217 00:20:11,563 --> 00:20:12,324 It doesn't bother them. 218 00:20:15,126 --> 00:20:20,772 If you've given up music and someone says music is a horrible, horrible thing, it's the work of Satan. 219 00:20:21,376 --> 00:20:25,261 It doesn't bother you because you don't have anything to do with it anymore, as with everything else. 220 00:20:26,263 --> 00:20:27,725 So if you can do it, it's great. 221 00:20:27,745 --> 00:20:32,050 When I finished my first meditation course, one of the hardest things I did was give up music. 222 00:20:32,531 --> 00:20:33,993 I had to stop playing the piano. 223 00:20:34,794 --> 00:20:36,196 No more classical guitar. 224 00:20:36,216 --> 00:20:39,440 I had to give away my Led Zeppelin CD collection. 225 00:20:45,048 --> 00:20:47,431 But I did it, and it was empowering. 226 00:20:48,573 --> 00:20:50,455 But certainly, you know, 227 00:20:51,127 --> 00:20:52,610 Ask more important things. 228 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:53,613 Can you give up sex? 229 00:20:54,815 --> 00:20:57,542 Can you give up killing mosquitoes and insects? 230 00:20:57,642 --> 00:20:59,907 Can you give up drinking alcohol and taking drugs? 231 00:21:00,649 --> 00:21:02,052 These are more important questions. 232 00:21:03,736 --> 00:21:07,865 Art and music are not such... Go for it. 233 00:21:07,945 --> 00:21:09,068 Not a big deal.