WEBVTT 00:37.645 --> 00:38.947 Okay, good evening everyone. 00:40.330 --> 00:47.241 Welcome to our weekly Dhamma session. 00:50.366 --> 00:52.750 These days we're going through the Majjhima Nikaya. 00:55.475 --> 01:00.944 It's a group of discourses of the Buddha that we call, we say, middle length. 01:01.405 --> 01:03.248 They're not too long and not too short. 01:05.270 --> 01:08.394 There are long ones that are also not too long, but they're longer. 01:10.598 --> 01:13.161 And there are also short ones, which are not too short. 01:16.346 --> 01:25.859 But these are the middle-length ones, which, to put them in a special place is sort of just the right size for consumption. 01:29.765 --> 01:31.547 Yeah, useful for our purposes. 01:35.442 --> 01:49.516 which our purposes are to provide inspiration and insight into meditation practice. 01:49.536 --> 02:02.109 So we're trying to pick topics that will be useful and beneficial for meditators to help us free ourselves. 02:03.250 --> 02:05.112 Really our meditation is about 02:07.977 --> 02:15.248 changing the way we look at the world and opening up our hearts to the way things actually are. 02:16.590 --> 02:23.660 Helping us to see that a lot of the way we look at the world is flawed. 02:24.561 --> 02:26.124 And there's so many reasons for that. 02:27.285 --> 02:37.360 Reasons of culture, religion, also parents and role models. 02:38.369 --> 02:40.332 Some of it's just due to chance. 02:43.195 --> 02:47.401 The way culture evolves is sometimes just due to chance, the way beliefs evolve. 02:52.528 --> 02:59.397 You think of that story of Henny Penny who said, the sky is falling. 03:01.300 --> 03:03.803 How something happens and it creates beliefs. 03:09.098 --> 03:10.460 that spread. 03:15.087 --> 03:22.299 The point being that much of our belief system and our way of looking at the world is makeshift. 03:22.519 --> 03:23.621 We do the best we can. 03:24.763 --> 03:26.105 Some of us do better than others. 03:26.445 --> 03:33.677 Some do quite poorly and end up with views that cause them great suffering and stress. 03:33.697 --> 03:34.498 Some do better. 03:36.115 --> 03:45.143 Some are lucky enough, and I would say lucky is really the right word, but happen upon a way that is actually beneficial and leads to happiness. 03:49.867 --> 04:05.920 Our intention, and the Buddha's intention really in teaching, was to clear all that up and provide some direction that if examined, followed, and 04:07.638 --> 04:15.367 and observed as far as results, one would be able to see that, hmm, this is the way things actually are. 04:16.769 --> 04:19.272 Much different than just the way I believe things to be. 04:19.312 --> 04:25.299 Some of the suttas I've been skipping here, he goes over this again and again. 04:26.721 --> 04:32.488 Belief turns out to be two, turns out one of two ways, right or wrong, basically, is what he says. 04:35.672 --> 04:36.733 Your 04:38.502 --> 04:42.167 Your religious books can say things and you say, well, it says in this book. 04:43.208 --> 04:44.790 It can turn out one of two ways. 04:46.773 --> 04:47.995 It can be tradition. 04:48.095 --> 04:57.648 It can be all sorts of, because your teacher, well, these famous charismatic teachers say this. 04:58.929 --> 05:00.291 It can turn out one of two ways. 05:06.397 --> 05:10.964 So today we're looking at the Pancha Daya Sutta, which is an interesting name. 05:11.044 --> 05:12.447 It means five and three. 05:15.471 --> 05:18.596 It doesn't really say what the five and the three are, but I think I have an idea. 05:19.738 --> 05:23.404 Again, I'm not going to go mainly through the Sutta, or completely through the Sutta. 05:24.205 --> 05:26.108 I encourage you to read it, as with all of them. 05:28.312 --> 05:31.517 But again, we're more interested in what sort of lesson it has for us. 05:31.597 --> 05:33.400 And what this Sutta is really talking about 05:34.696 --> 05:42.863 The five is referring to five types of view, mainly about the self. 05:42.883 --> 05:45.566 And the three is talking about the three time periods. 05:46.887 --> 05:54.274 One gets caught up in views about the future, about the past, or one gets caught up about the present. 05:56.436 --> 05:57.337 That's what the sutta did. 05:57.477 --> 06:02.121 It has a really interesting take on all three of these that I think is useful for meditators. 06:06.016 --> 06:07.659 So hopefully there's some benefit here. 06:10.644 --> 06:13.990 So the five, we don't really have to enumerate them. 06:14.010 --> 06:21.324 I mean, four of them have to do with self and really have to do with the future. 06:23.888 --> 06:25.571 We're talking about the three time periods. 06:25.652 --> 06:27.275 The three is the three time periods. 06:28.938 --> 06:29.779 And really what this... 06:31.463 --> 06:34.328 sums up, I think, quite well. 06:34.348 --> 06:42.103 It sums up a lot, if not all, of spirituality gone wrong. 06:44.588 --> 06:51.160 And that's, I mean, it's harsh to say gone wrong, but I have to unpack this because 06:58.565 --> 07:05.814 According, Buddhism sees, the Buddha saw the whole of the universe. 07:07.275 --> 07:11.220 I'm not just talking about the physical universe, but all the realms of being. 07:13.563 --> 07:15.105 He called this samsara. 07:15.125 --> 07:16.647 We know this term, it's familiar. 07:18.369 --> 07:27.019 And in that context, in the context of calling this all samsara, anything that keeps you in samsara is wrong. 07:28.552 --> 07:33.539 And it's a very specific sort of wrong because someone can do right things in samsara, right? 07:33.680 --> 07:35.502 Someone can be a good person and go to heaven. 07:36.364 --> 07:37.666 And you would say, well, that's the right thing. 07:37.746 --> 07:38.647 You did the right thing. 07:43.174 --> 07:44.396 So we might not call it wrong. 07:44.416 --> 07:49.003 I don't want to be too harsh, but limited. 07:50.585 --> 07:57.175 We would call it spirituality that doesn't lead to a concrete goal or freedom, let's say. 07:59.062 --> 08:03.387 It leads to samsara, to wandering around in circles. 08:04.849 --> 08:06.391 Being born again is the idea. 08:15.261 --> 08:22.129 And so the only thing in Buddhism that can be different is what he calls the cessation of formations, right? 08:22.149 --> 08:24.032 What does he call? 08:24.052 --> 08:26.014 The cessation of formations 08:28.255 --> 08:31.920 But let's start at the start. 08:33.622 --> 08:34.904 So people believe in self. 08:35.885 --> 08:45.297 And belief in self, I'll pull that out of the sutta because that's a very important thing to pull out and talk about. 08:48.121 --> 08:55.090 Clearly you don't have to have the Buddha point out how important the self is, soul, I. 08:57.398 --> 09:00.481 how important that is, in Western thought anyway. 09:00.501 --> 09:17.437 I don't know if you could argue that in other cultures, various cultures, there are various levels of this, but I think it's fair to say that most cultures, most people in the world have a strong sense of self, and that's very important to them. 09:17.457 --> 09:27.186 In the Buddha's time, it was very important, and it was disturbing for people that the Buddha would denounce their views. 09:29.528 --> 09:36.980 And so a lot of Buddhists have been quick to say that the Buddha thought there was no Self. 09:38.483 --> 09:46.756 Other Buddhists have been quick to say that the Buddha never said that, and the Buddha didn't teach there was no Self, and the Buddha didn't deny the existence of the Self. 09:46.776 --> 09:52.566 And so we get all these different conflicting ideas and arguments. 10:01.186 --> 10:02.528 People believe in self. 10:02.588 --> 10:08.194 They have this idea that particularly the Buddha refers to future. 10:09.215 --> 10:12.018 The idea that the soul continues on. 10:15.062 --> 10:21.409 The soul continues on and is aware and unimpaired after death. 10:24.373 --> 10:30.079 And then some other people, some people see that as limited. 10:32.320 --> 10:40.757 And we're dwelling a little bit into the way they thought in India because it might not seem that familiar, but I can show how it actually is quite familiar. 10:43.061 --> 10:53.181 If you think about the Hindu concept, the popular Hindu concept of samsara, 10:54.578 --> 11:05.956 It's that the soul is born again and again and again and it's part of this endless illusion of the world. 11:08.300 --> 11:13.288 And so someone would maybe be quick to say, that's not leading anywhere. 11:14.210 --> 11:16.333 And that to do that again and again and again is 11:17.613 --> 11:18.674 It's missing something. 11:18.694 --> 11:25.680 And so there was a lot of talk about moksha in India and this idea of something beyond that. 11:27.642 --> 11:34.208 And so they would have these concepts of the soul becoming one with everything, one with God. 11:34.248 --> 11:35.850 You've probably heard of these concepts. 11:36.851 --> 11:42.036 And I sort of thought this was kind of an Indian concept. 11:42.056 --> 11:46.860 And, you know, when you think of Christianity, take Christianity because it's the other big one that talks about heaven. 11:48.832 --> 11:50.655 Talks about the afterlife. 11:50.715 --> 11:51.896 Judaism, not so much. 11:52.217 --> 11:59.027 I guess Islam as well, but I don't know too much about it. 11:59.087 --> 12:12.346 So my thought, my concept of Christianity was that, you know, it's like fluffy clouds and people with rings around their heads and wings and stuff. 12:12.406 --> 12:13.708 The pearly gates and all that. 12:14.988 --> 12:20.259 But I was just reading today, actually, Simone Weil is this Christian mystic. 12:22.484 --> 12:26.633 And someone said to her, well, if we don't see you in this life, I'll see you in the next. 12:27.956 --> 12:33.267 And she said, there will be no knowing each other in the next, something like that. 12:36.132 --> 12:52.935 So there's a deeper sense, a deeper spirituality beyond this wandering on that sort of has the idea that there's some state of, some higher state to just being born again and again or even going to heaven. 12:54.757 --> 12:56.740 It's becoming one with everything and so on. 13:02.508 --> 13:07.614 There are other people who try to jump even further and say, oh no, no, that's still limited. 13:08.595 --> 13:09.536 What is that state? 13:09.676 --> 13:10.217 So what? 13:11.398 --> 13:14.862 So you're up in some oneness state. 13:18.266 --> 13:28.397 And they talk about something even, I don't want to go into this in too detail, but they talk about deeper states that are neither percipient nor non-percipient. 13:31.060 --> 13:38.778 And the fourth type are of course the annihilationists, the people who believe that when you die there's nothing. 13:40.883 --> 13:42.006 That should be more familiar. 13:42.186 --> 13:49.423 There's a lot of people in the West who, in our culture, who believe there's nothing after death. 13:54.280 --> 13:55.301 When we die, that's it. 13:56.542 --> 14:05.730 A lot of people have trouble with Buddhism, even though they want to, they agree with so much of it, but then really have trouble with the idea that there might be something after death. 14:05.830 --> 14:17.541 It's just so fantastical and unsubstantiated, they would say. 14:18.902 --> 14:19.082 Right? 14:19.943 --> 14:21.925 We don't see any afterlife here. 14:23.305 --> 14:26.711 What we see is people being born and then they die, and when they die, that's it. 14:31.639 --> 14:37.789 The fifth type of person asserts Nibbana here and now. 14:39.031 --> 14:39.772 That's what it says. 14:40.654 --> 14:43.598 It means the fifth type of person is special. 14:43.699 --> 14:45.622 That's what we're going to talk about at the very end. 14:47.184 --> 14:49.448 But this type of person gets caught in the present. 14:51.537 --> 14:53.199 So the first four are really about the future. 14:54.161 --> 14:58.447 It's kind of a mixed up numbering system here, so I'm not really... 14:58.467 --> 15:01.531 I'm sorry if it sounds a bit confusing, because it kind of is. 15:05.938 --> 15:09.783 But first about the future, and particularly about the self. 15:11.185 --> 15:18.456 So whether it be about our concepts of what happens after we die, or our concept of the self, 15:20.208 --> 15:27.796 What the Buddha says about all of these is that they're gross, they're coarse. 15:30.859 --> 15:31.660 Which is important. 15:31.700 --> 15:33.822 The Buddha doesn't say it's true. 15:34.023 --> 15:35.484 And I've said this several times. 15:35.524 --> 15:38.667 The Buddha never says there is no self. 15:38.687 --> 15:46.896 People hear this about the Buddha, that the Buddha taught non-self and so on, and they wonder, could there really be no self? 15:46.996 --> 15:47.957 What would that even mean? 15:48.598 --> 15:49.759 They get very confused. 15:52.186 --> 15:53.529 And the confusion is coarse. 15:53.590 --> 15:56.978 The confusion is on this level, the same level of believing in a self. 15:57.078 --> 16:08.507 Whether you believe in a self or doubt a self, the doubt about a self, you're in the realm of coarseness, of a mind state that is not useful, not helpful. 16:10.208 --> 16:23.845 It's very important that we understand how the Buddha replied, that a person who wanted to give the right answer would not say, no, no, Buddhism teaches that there is no self, that's wrong, really there is no self. 16:23.865 --> 16:29.693 A person would say, your beliefs in self are just causing you stress and suffering, getting in your way, they're coarse. 16:30.974 --> 16:34.579 And that's how the Buddha replied, that's how the Buddha taught, he said, 16:35.977 --> 16:49.319 Having found something better, having seen there is this, having known there is this, seeing the escape from that, the tathagata has gone beyond that. 16:49.339 --> 16:57.152 So there is this is referring to the freedom to this state of reality really. 16:58.274 --> 17:01.680 If you want to paraphrase that you could say, having seen reality, 17:03.820 --> 17:07.245 He shakes his head at all these views that people have. 17:08.767 --> 17:12.712 Because if in your mind you say to yourself, there is a self, what's going on in that moment? 17:13.894 --> 17:17.759 In that moment the mind has some activity, there is some mental activity. 17:20.182 --> 17:24.228 In fact, even to say the mind has would be just a convention. 17:25.209 --> 17:29.054 All that we know, all that really is happening is an experience of thought. 17:30.476 --> 17:32.038 The conception, there is a self. 17:33.453 --> 17:35.176 Same thing if you say there isn't a self. 17:35.296 --> 17:38.621 Same thing if you say, I'm not sure, is there a self? 17:40.283 --> 17:41.225 Or you worry about it. 17:41.345 --> 17:44.710 What will happen to me if there's no self? 17:44.730 --> 17:46.132 All of that is experience. 17:46.352 --> 17:50.819 And having seen this, the Buddha has no use for such views. 17:50.839 --> 17:53.904 Buddhists should have no use for such arguments or debates. 17:56.427 --> 17:58.911 Because they're seeing experience. 17:58.931 --> 18:02.937 They're too busy with reality to get caught up in 18:04.638 --> 18:05.460 All that stuff. 18:12.796 --> 18:21.074 And so it's a bit of a cop out because it doesn't answer the question. 18:21.114 --> 18:23.018 The question that people often have is, 18:24.382 --> 18:27.466 What proof do you have? 18:27.486 --> 18:29.770 What evidence do you have that there's anything after you die? 18:31.051 --> 18:36.459 The first three we can easily discard by saying these people are just caught up in their views. 18:37.180 --> 18:42.247 But we say the same thing about the fourth person, a person who says after death there's nothing. 18:43.288 --> 18:52.421 This person is also caught up in their views, which is sort of a callback because we're just, we don't have time, it's almost like we don't have time to entertain it. 18:52.481 --> 18:53.022 It's like, pfft. 18:54.487 --> 18:55.168 Let go of that. 18:55.208 --> 18:59.154 There's too much going on and you've got to worry about the future. 18:59.214 --> 19:02.198 You've got to be concerned about where this is leading you. 19:04.281 --> 19:14.196 The Buddha says, such a person who gets caught up in this idea that there's nothing after death is still caught up and they're going to go to a bad place when they die. 19:15.337 --> 19:17.220 He doesn't give proof or evidence. 19:18.905 --> 19:23.831 which I think in the West we often want this evidence that there is some life after death. 19:23.851 --> 19:25.053 I've talked about this before. 19:26.875 --> 19:35.706 My take on it is the burden of proof lies on the people who say experience stops at the moment of death. 19:37.008 --> 19:38.569 We know that experience exists. 19:38.990 --> 19:40.432 We have first-hand evidence. 19:40.993 --> 19:48.642 I can look and see, yes, there's experience, that's true, and yes, it continues on moment after moment after moment. 19:50.596 --> 19:57.088 But a person who says something is going to happen to you that's going to stop this, I would say, well, prove it. 19:57.368 --> 19:58.510 Provide me with evidence. 19:59.392 --> 20:03.639 And they show me the dead person and I say, that has nothing to do with experience. 20:04.060 --> 20:06.985 I don't know anything about that being's experience. 20:08.062 --> 20:11.485 All I know is that this experience continues unimpeded. 20:11.946 --> 20:16.430 If you start to look at reality in this way, it makes so much, it resonates with you. 20:17.331 --> 20:24.297 This way of looking at the world resonates because there's laws to it. 20:24.898 --> 20:27.801 If you do bad things, bad things happen to you. 20:27.821 --> 20:30.263 If you're mean and nasty, it corrupts your mind. 20:30.343 --> 20:33.186 If you're attached and greedy, you become addicted. 20:33.226 --> 20:34.727 We can see how this works. 20:35.905 --> 20:40.930 The idea that a death that just stops, it creates a whole host of problems. 20:40.950 --> 20:43.012 That's probably where a lot of religion came from. 20:43.052 --> 20:46.015 The ideas of heaven and God and so on. 20:47.176 --> 20:49.839 Thinking of something higher when in fact this is all there is. 20:49.959 --> 20:52.421 All there is, is these experiences. 20:52.621 --> 20:53.843 Death doesn't stop that. 20:54.703 --> 20:56.205 If you think it does, you gotta prove it. 21:01.170 --> 21:03.432 But this suit isn't really about that question. 21:04.897 --> 21:18.149 It's about, again, states of mind and the state of a person's mind when they believe and hold on to any of these things instead of being mindful and doing the work that needs to be done to purify their mind, really. 21:20.070 --> 21:31.660 Which is, according to Buddhism, the most important thing, that we make our minds free from defilement. 21:31.680 --> 21:33.722 All these views and opinions don't really matter. 21:36.554 --> 21:40.618 So a second type of person has lots of views about the past. 21:40.638 --> 21:42.259 Moving right along, we'll talk about that. 21:43.680 --> 21:45.242 Speculation about the past. 21:46.463 --> 21:55.431 He labels it as speculation about the past, but we could broaden it a little bit and talk about speculation about the world, because he says the self and world are eternal. 21:56.192 --> 21:57.993 Not entirely about the past. 21:58.053 --> 21:59.414 You could say that. 21:59.434 --> 22:01.656 I'm not going to argue with the Buddha. 22:01.676 --> 22:05.700 But just to keep it simple, we're talking about views about 22:05.680 --> 22:08.750 What do we call metaphysics or cosmology? 22:10.315 --> 22:13.786 I guess it's called metaphysics. 22:16.895 --> 22:18.340 It's about the nature of the world. 22:25.778 --> 22:26.459 There's too many. 22:26.539 --> 22:27.279 There's a whole bunch. 22:27.319 --> 22:28.460 There's 16 of them. 22:29.121 --> 22:31.383 I'm not going to go into them. 22:31.403 --> 22:32.904 But it's about the self and the world. 22:32.924 --> 22:38.449 It's about the nature of the world and a lot about past life, I would guess. 22:39.971 --> 22:45.756 If you're the idea of who you were before. 22:45.776 --> 22:51.261 He doesn't talk about that, though. 22:51.281 --> 22:53.743 And that's not because I think in the West we're not so 22:55.343 --> 22:59.528 I know a lot of our listeners have this sort of question, who was I in my past life? 22:59.548 --> 23:01.491 And the Buddha talks about that in other places. 23:01.551 --> 23:02.692 He's not talking about it here. 23:06.377 --> 23:09.501 There's speculation about the world, really. 23:14.968 --> 23:16.390 What is the nature of the world? 23:23.322 --> 23:26.767 They speculate that we could turn maybe to the way religion looks at the world. 23:27.868 --> 23:34.698 Religion has all sorts of views like the world was created in seven days, six days, six days. 23:42.569 --> 23:48.638 Some people believe, what's this belief that the world is on the back of a turtle? 23:50.963 --> 23:58.131 There's this funny belief that it's kind of derisive. 23:58.611 --> 24:07.981 Atheists will talk about if the earth is on the back of a turtle, then what's the turtle on the back of? 24:08.021 --> 24:12.846 And the person who was arguing said, oh, it's turtles all the way down. 24:15.609 --> 24:16.330 Something like that. 24:18.419 --> 24:26.392 which they deride because it's not very well thought out. 24:26.412 --> 24:29.497 It doesn't answer the question. 24:31.481 --> 24:33.143 It's called infinite regress. 24:33.564 --> 24:34.486 But lots of views. 24:35.047 --> 24:39.454 Views about the way things are. 24:41.457 --> 24:43.060 Views about the self. 24:43.080 --> 24:44.342 Views about the world. 24:47.140 --> 24:51.167 If you think of all the religious views, how Hindus believe that this is just an illusion. 24:52.649 --> 24:53.991 These things aren't actually here. 24:54.052 --> 25:01.163 This is God giving us something to play with or God playing with us or something like that. 25:02.506 --> 25:04.168 We're not actually born and die. 25:04.269 --> 25:08.856 We're actually seeing and none of these things are actually here. 25:08.896 --> 25:09.958 It's all just illusion. 25:15.946 --> 25:18.489 People believe what leads to heaven. 25:18.529 --> 25:24.877 These terrorists who believe that if you kill people or kill yourself, you'll go to heaven. 25:27.120 --> 25:31.826 And Christians believe that if you put your faith in Jesus Christ, you'll go to heaven. 25:40.396 --> 25:41.458 Lots of different beliefs. 25:42.759 --> 25:45.683 And what the Buddha says about these beliefs is that 25:51.637 --> 25:53.439 Well, it's important to distinguish. 25:53.759 --> 26:10.676 It's important because we fall into the habit of subsisting on belief, thinking that it's enough that I believe such and such. 26:12.537 --> 26:14.239 We gain comfort from our beliefs. 26:14.739 --> 26:20.445 I've met so many people in my time teaching, so many people who have such strange beliefs. 26:21.623 --> 26:25.168 And you can hear it in their voice that they feel like it's enough. 26:26.710 --> 26:31.057 They shouldn't have to justify themselves or prove or provide evidence. 26:32.639 --> 26:34.482 It's satisfactory as a human being. 26:34.522 --> 26:37.827 You've kind of done your job as a spiritual being to believe something. 26:39.750 --> 26:41.352 We talk about believing in something. 26:43.435 --> 26:46.159 And I hope it's clear that that's not really sufficient. 26:46.479 --> 26:48.222 You can believe in the very wrong thing. 26:49.923 --> 26:59.678 Having belief in something is by no means support for it being useful, beneficial, let alone true. 27:03.103 --> 27:07.991 And so the Buddha says, make a claim of knowing what's true. 27:08.512 --> 27:10.615 And that we all tend to. 27:12.164 --> 27:13.426 not just as Buddhists. 27:13.486 --> 27:22.641 As Buddhists we tend to make these claims because of our experiences, because of how empirical our practice is. 27:27.328 --> 27:30.914 And that's important to remind ourselves, you know, I've seen what's real. 27:32.917 --> 27:33.578 This is real. 27:33.858 --> 27:36.102 Real is experience. 27:36.122 --> 27:37.564 And so he says that anyone 27:38.742 --> 27:51.321 could know for themselves, basically put it this way, that anyone could investigate reality and find evidence for all these crazy views is impossible. 27:53.144 --> 27:54.607 I mean the Buddha knows that, knew that. 27:55.848 --> 27:58.152 All of us through our practice, if you practice 27:59.448 --> 28:02.153 It's not, we don't call it practicing Buddhism. 28:02.213 --> 28:07.001 If you practice looking at reality, you'll see the same thing the Buddha did. 28:07.021 --> 28:09.585 I mean, you'll only see one thing, whatever it is. 28:12.169 --> 28:21.625 And it won't be all these crazy views, which come out of very different, many different things. 28:23.208 --> 28:33.257 the most common is they come out of extrapolation, where you experience one thing and you extrapolate it to be something much, much more. 28:34.398 --> 28:41.504 Like you feel bliss or peace, and every religious tradition out there will interpret it in a different way. 28:41.945 --> 28:44.047 The same experience of peace. 28:45.248 --> 28:47.510 So Buddhism would say, well, it's an experience of peace. 28:47.950 --> 28:48.791 And in fact, it does. 28:49.932 --> 28:53.215 So let's move right along to the third section. 28:53.195 --> 29:02.207 When we get stuck in the present, some people are able to avoid these, what the Buddha calls future and past clingings. 29:04.289 --> 29:15.003 Clingings to what happens to us in the future and clingings to about how the world has gotten the way it is and I guess how the way the world is. 29:16.825 --> 29:22.172 And they only focus on the present and they become enlightened in the present according to them. 29:25.780 --> 29:34.871 So some people find, what does he call, he has layers here, abides in the rapture of seclusion. 29:37.074 --> 29:44.603 They give up views about the past, they give up sensual pleasure, and they enter into the rapture of seclusion. 29:45.725 --> 29:48.548 It means their mind is secluded, peaceful. 29:55.413 --> 29:59.117 And they think, this is the peaceful, this is the sublime, this is nibbana. 29:59.777 --> 30:07.225 They enter into the rapture of seclusion, this rapture, this blissful state. 30:11.129 --> 30:13.371 And then that state ends. 30:14.773 --> 30:20.138 And they scramble to get back, and when it doesn't come back, they experience grief. 30:23.594 --> 30:27.100 With the cessation of the rapture of seclusion, grief arises. 30:27.381 --> 30:31.227 With the cessation of grief, the rapture of seclusion arises. 30:33.752 --> 30:42.707 And the Tathagata, this is a word for Buddha, understands that is conditioned and gross. 30:42.988 --> 30:44.951 This is a refrain that goes throughout the sutta. 30:45.472 --> 30:47.796 That is conditioned and gross, but there is 30:49.244 --> 30:52.048 but there is instead the cessation of formations. 30:52.348 --> 30:57.895 Having known there is this, seeing the escape from that, the tathagata has gone beyond that. 31:02.241 --> 31:08.629 So in this case, I mean, it's not bad to feel rapture of seclusion, but it's coarse and conditioned. 31:10.351 --> 31:10.932 It's limited. 31:12.854 --> 31:16.399 It's not an ultimate good. 31:18.758 --> 31:23.267 It's problematic because it's impermanent, because you can't control it. 31:27.415 --> 31:31.081 So another person goes beyond that and they experience unworldly pleasure. 31:31.161 --> 31:39.093 Some people experience just complete calm and quiet, neither painful nor pleasant feeling. 31:39.554 --> 31:46.364 So they'll come and they'll explain it as this perfect tranquility, stillness of mind, emptiness. 31:47.045 --> 31:50.250 The Buddha says, neither painful nor pleasant feeling. 31:52.255 --> 31:56.862 quite utilitarian description, which really cuts to the point. 31:57.062 --> 32:01.750 You can have all sorts of flowery, you can say this is oneness with God or oneness with the universe. 32:03.272 --> 32:04.313 Dude, it's just a feeling. 32:11.444 --> 32:14.449 And the Buddha says, this is course. 32:17.230 --> 32:18.152 This is gross. 32:18.172 --> 32:20.155 This is conditioned. 32:20.175 --> 32:21.077 What does conditioned mean? 32:21.117 --> 32:24.283 Conditioned means it comes about because of causes. 32:25.084 --> 32:27.909 You did something and you got there. 32:27.929 --> 32:32.898 But the nature of conditioned things is they rely upon the support. 32:33.239 --> 32:37.146 And when you stop supporting them, they disappear. 33:01.578 --> 33:02.780 And to someone even... 33:07.449 --> 33:17.427 So these people who attain these states, and if they get deep into these states, they can think to themselves, I am at peace, I have attained nibbana, I am without clinging. 33:21.963 --> 33:28.699 Now it's possible for someone to attain Nibbana and have that sort of thought, hey, I've attained Nibbana and I'm without clinging. 33:30.122 --> 33:38.301 But there are many, many people and many examples of people who have the idea that they're free, that they've attained enlightenment, when in fact they haven't. 33:54.818 --> 33:56.924 And of course the way to tell is, do they have clinging? 33:57.064 --> 33:59.652 Is there some attachment? 34:00.895 --> 34:03.222 Which really you can only find through being mindful. 34:03.442 --> 34:09.840 You can only see through strict and objective observation. 34:09.820 --> 34:14.529 If you take our practice, the practice that we do, none of this really is a problem. 34:14.569 --> 34:24.888 You're able to see how glaringly problematic all of this is and how at odds it is with the very simple truth of reality. 34:25.810 --> 34:32.082 You can see yourself holding on to views, holding on to your outlook and your beliefs. 34:39.487 --> 34:47.919 And so the Buddha said, I teach the supreme state of sublime peace, which is liberation through not clinging. 34:49.181 --> 34:54.869 Really what we're trying to do is to work on our clinging. 34:55.851 --> 35:07.047 Look at the things that we cling to, the things that we like and enjoy and want and strive for, and try to see them objectively. 35:08.731 --> 35:37.219 doesn't mean we're trying to see them without clinging, we're trying to look at them and answer the question of whether they're worth clinging to, or not even asking that question, but look at them clearly to see the unfortunate truth that none of them are worth clinging to, and that unfortunately we've been clinging to things that are not worth clinging to, that in fact nothing is worth clinging to, not even the view that I have attained Nibbana, not even the idea of attaining Nibbana, 35:42.903 --> 35:45.547 And that is the Panchataya Sutta. 35:47.090 --> 35:49.093 Some interesting insights. 35:50.275 --> 36:02.775 Definitely worth a read, but for now I hope it's been somehow insightful and helpful to direct our attention in our meditation practice. 36:02.795 --> 36:04.017 That's the Dhamma for tonight. 36:05.118 --> 36:06.160 Thank you all for tuning in.