1 00:00:00,031 --> 00:00:06,081 Do monks stick to their clique in most monasteries? 2 00:00:06,181 --> 00:00:09,246 And is there politics among monks, too? 3 00:00:10,168 --> 00:00:14,895 What are the things that you had not expected when you ordained? 4 00:00:17,419 --> 00:00:20,284 Oh, it uses this question. 5 00:00:22,002 --> 00:00:23,664 Is it really good for me to answer this? 6 00:00:25,927 --> 00:00:27,489 What do you think? 7 00:00:27,509 --> 00:00:30,333 Is this going to help people's meditation if they hear the answer? 8 00:00:34,959 --> 00:00:40,727 Perhaps if it shows us what guided you to your position at that time. 9 00:00:40,747 --> 00:00:47,976 I think everyone has their own personal story as to why and when certain things happen in their lives. 10 00:00:49,829 --> 00:00:52,709 How about I answer the last question then? 11 00:00:52,729 --> 00:00:55,367 What are the things you had not expected when you ordained? 12 00:00:57,423 --> 00:01:02,290 Because honestly, I didn't have very high expectations when I ordained. 13 00:01:04,073 --> 00:01:09,601 Partly because I had no knowledge of Buddhism, which... No, sorry. 14 00:01:10,563 --> 00:01:11,804 Sorry, ordained was much later. 15 00:01:11,844 --> 00:01:18,134 When I first started practicing Buddhism, I had no expectations or no knowledge of Buddhism. 16 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:22,300 And so... 17 00:01:23,714 --> 00:01:26,820 I don't know that ordination is a different issue. 18 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:37,502 This may be the more interesting one, but if I can just get the other part out of the way is that, first of all, I had no expectations of how monks should act. 19 00:01:37,562 --> 00:01:43,815 I was offering monks food in the afternoon and was confused as to why they weren't accepting it. 20 00:01:43,795 --> 00:02:04,723 And also because I saw a lot of things that, before I ordained, that totally made it perfectly clear that at least in the area of the world where I was at the time, and the Buddhist world that I was revolving around, 21 00:02:04,703 --> 00:02:28,146 didn't have very high standards and so had a lot of problems and and so on my first teachers were lay people and that added to it because their understanding and not understanding but they're one of the things that they they 22 00:02:31,535 --> 00:02:43,599 What they adhere to or hold strongly is the idea that you don't have to ordain, that there's not any intrinsic benefit in ordaining, which is technically true. 23 00:02:43,619 --> 00:02:47,046 A lay person can be as pure as a monk. 24 00:02:47,026 --> 00:02:49,129 But they emphasized it. 25 00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:58,184 And so that sort of emphasis leads you to have some sort of disregard for the monastic life. 26 00:02:59,366 --> 00:03:00,889 And the monkhood. 27 00:03:01,009 --> 00:03:02,591 And so I didn't have expectations. 28 00:03:02,672 --> 00:03:05,997 I saw, you know, yeah, a lot of monks are just corrupt and so on. 29 00:03:05,977 --> 00:03:07,741 And so on. 30 00:03:10,507 --> 00:03:20,087 But after I ordained, you see this is two years later, so in my situation it's not that profound of an experience. 31 00:03:22,953 --> 00:03:41,839 After I ordained, one of the things I didn't expect was the fact that I had to be different, or as different as I had to be, or in the ways that I had to be different from lay people. 32 00:03:41,819 --> 00:03:49,430 Of course everyone has the idea and really feels that they're becoming something different and knows that you have to be different as a monk. 33 00:03:49,450 --> 00:04:00,486 But I caught myself acting a lot like a lay person in many ways and working very closely with lay people because my teachers were still lay people. 34 00:04:00,466 --> 00:04:06,140 And that kind of took me by surprise, the fact that I really shouldn't be doing that. 35 00:04:06,922 --> 00:04:13,077 I shouldn't have been in such close relations with lay people. 36 00:04:13,097 --> 00:04:18,610 And I certainly shouldn't have been acting so much like a lay person. 37 00:04:18,590 --> 00:04:44,125 it took me by surprise i don't know that it took me by surprise but one thing that slowly dawned on me and yeah it did take me by surprise when i found myself unable to break rules when i found myself unable to justify breaking the rules anymore which i know good monks who do justify breaking the rules 38 00:04:44,105 --> 00:04:47,849 minor rules their whole lives. 39 00:04:48,389 --> 00:05:12,154 But because of my Western upbringing and because of the stubborn Taurus that I am, just the kind of person that I am, I've got this kind of, well, most Western monks get this kind of irreverence for authority, but 40 00:05:12,134 --> 00:05:19,895 ambition, or I don't know what the right word is, the zeal to do something a thousand percent. 41 00:05:20,698 --> 00:05:21,199 So 42 00:05:24,790 --> 00:05:32,342 And I guess those two qualities exist in Western monks to different degrees, or in monks in general to different degrees. 43 00:05:32,402 --> 00:05:40,896 But with Westerners, some Westerners have just this total disregard for authority, so don't care about the rules, but don't have the ambition to do things perfectly. 44 00:05:42,017 --> 00:05:43,700 So they say, yeah, meditation's enough. 45 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,243 I mean, what do you need all these rules for? 46 00:05:46,705 --> 00:05:50,511 But people like me, with both of them, which are kind of conflicting... 47 00:05:51,200 --> 00:06:00,294 you don't care about the fact that everyone else is breaking the rules, you want to do it fully in a hundred or a thousand percent. 48 00:06:00,454 --> 00:06:15,676 And often the fact that everyone else is breaking the rules will lead you to obnoxiously decide to keep the rules, flying fully in the face of your monastic community, which is really not a fun situation. 49 00:06:15,777 --> 00:06:16,498 It's kind of fun. 50 00:06:16,638 --> 00:06:20,143 It's fun to be hated by everyone in your monastery in that sense. 51 00:06:20,123 --> 00:06:23,733 which I certainly have been in my time. 52 00:06:25,758 --> 00:06:36,647 Do you feel that some of the archaic practices and rules and regulations of current times 53 00:06:37,235 --> 00:06:49,538 Buddhism, do you feel, since it's like, you know, 25, 2600 years old, do you think some of those ideas are detrimental to the growth of modern day Buddhism? 54 00:06:49,558 --> 00:06:50,600 No. 55 00:06:50,620 --> 00:06:52,003 No, I don't think so. 56 00:06:53,637 --> 00:06:59,966 No, I think what's detrimental is people's belief that it has to change. 57 00:07:00,888 --> 00:07:13,526 Because if we decided that no, they're good and they don't have to change, then the Buddhist culture would very quickly and very easily work to accommodate them. 58 00:07:13,646 --> 00:07:17,732 The Buddhist monastic rules are not difficult to accommodate. 59 00:07:17,832 --> 00:07:21,197 Sometimes you might have to stretch or even break 60 00:07:21,177 --> 00:07:24,322 knowing that you're breaking them in certain situations. 61 00:07:26,145 --> 00:07:27,927 You don't have to, but sometimes you will. 62 00:07:28,088 --> 00:07:37,462 Like for example, I might stay in an apartment building and some people might say that's breaking the rule. 63 00:07:37,502 --> 00:07:39,625 I might even break the rule by staying in 64 00:07:39,605 --> 00:07:40,206 I don't know. 65 00:07:40,226 --> 00:07:46,799 I mean, there are ways around some of the rules that are kind of silly, like you're not allowed to stay in the same residence as a layperson. 66 00:07:47,481 --> 00:07:51,008 But what that means is you're not allowed to be lying down at sunrise. 67 00:07:51,769 --> 00:07:58,002 So if you get up and sit up before sunrise, you've not spent the night with a layperson, for example. 68 00:07:57,982 --> 00:08:00,664 A lay man, a lay woman, you can't even lie down together. 69 00:08:00,684 --> 00:08:03,547 But that's not really the point here. 70 00:08:04,228 --> 00:08:13,316 The actual rules themselves, I can't think of even one where I would really say definitely that has to go. 71 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:16,138 Most especially the not touching money one. 72 00:08:16,198 --> 00:08:19,241 I mean, that's the big one that people harp on. 73 00:08:19,301 --> 00:08:24,466 But that's such an intrinsic, even today it's such an intrinsic part of the monastic life. 74 00:08:25,066 --> 00:08:27,128 And it's really not difficult if... 75 00:08:27,513 --> 00:08:32,823 The problem is finding a community that is supportive. 76 00:08:33,364 --> 00:08:44,847 One thing I will admit is a lot of the modes and... 77 00:08:44,827 --> 00:08:58,050 that are expected of Buddhist monks are under the assumption that you're living in a society that provides alms to holy people. 78 00:08:59,172 --> 00:09:07,847 So in India, not just Buddhists, but people who are trying to become holy or living in a holy way, like shamans, 79 00:09:07,827 --> 00:09:15,543 These shramanas were able to get by and even today are able to get by in India. 80 00:09:15,583 --> 00:09:25,363 So these guys go around begging for money or begging for food in many different sects in India, not just Buddhists. 81 00:09:25,343 --> 00:09:27,085 Well, now Buddhists don't. 82 00:09:28,046 --> 00:09:35,735 But that's what I'm facing now going to Canada because I can't go to Canada and just go alms round on the street. 83 00:09:35,915 --> 00:09:38,898 I can't go to Canada in the same way as I would go to Thailand. 84 00:09:39,419 --> 00:09:44,545 If I want to go to Thailand, I just go to Thailand, find some place and decide that I'm going to live there. 85 00:09:44,765 --> 00:09:47,248 And nowadays it's much more difficult. 86 00:09:47,268 --> 00:09:47,989 You can't really do it. 87 00:09:48,029 --> 00:09:49,631 But in olden days, you could just do that. 88 00:09:49,871 --> 00:09:54,456 Set up your tent, put your robe over you at night. 89 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:57,821 And you get alms food, you get enough food to eat. 90 00:09:58,242 --> 00:10:00,185 In Canada I won't get that. 91 00:10:00,786 --> 00:10:03,990 And so it's a challenge. 92 00:10:04,471 --> 00:10:07,736 But you look at the two different sides of the coin. 93 00:10:08,697 --> 00:10:10,640 Trying to keep the rules is a challenge. 94 00:10:11,181 --> 00:10:14,246 Breaking the rules is a disappointment, is a corruption. 95 00:10:14,286 --> 00:10:19,093 It means your monk life is going to suffer. 96 00:10:19,073 --> 00:10:47,983 in the sense of how you look, how you present what a recluse is, what a monk is, how people relate to you, how they respect the life of a dedicated Buddhist meditator, how they respect the teachings, how they look at the teachings and so on, and how you yourself live in terms of your peace of mind and your ability to grow. 97 00:10:47,963 --> 00:10:55,012 So the challenges are far more appealing, right? 98 00:10:55,032 --> 00:10:58,076 And so it's not two sets of challenges. 99 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:13,937 There's not much challenge in breaking the rules, but suddenly you have corruption sneaking in in terms of how people look at you and how they look at the Dhamma, how they look at Buddhism, how the community is set up and how people feel about what they're doing. 100 00:11:13,917 --> 00:11:26,018 Most people in the West don't get this because they've never really had the experience of either being a monk or even living with a monastic community. 101 00:11:26,278 --> 00:11:30,125 I don't know that I'll ever provide that because, look at me, I use computers and stuff. 102 00:11:31,087 --> 00:11:37,798 But what I do provide is people who are interested in it, because some people really do 103 00:11:37,778 --> 00:12:06,351 chastise me for not touching money but for those people who get into it especially Asian Buddhists who have never really who have you know been accustomed to monks who don't keep the rules find it you know refreshing to know that the monk that they're dealing with this teacher that they have has no money and doesn't take money and doesn't have any interest in money 104 00:12:06,331 --> 00:12:15,828 and relies entirely, subsists entirely upon what he is provided with, what is donated to him for that day. 105 00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:23,682 So, is not able to choose his meals, is not able to 106 00:12:24,995 --> 00:12:48,927 differentiate between food or keep or hold on to these sorts of things and so I found it's been an incredible support for my practice and a incredible support for my my work as well because people really want us I've seen people who really want to support me and 107 00:12:48,907 --> 00:12:52,813 You know, for two reasons. 108 00:12:53,153 --> 00:13:06,914 I'm thinking of Asian Buddhists who really want to support me for the fact that I teach meditation, but also very much for the fact that I keep the rules strictly because they know that they can trust me or they're more likely to believe that they can trust me. 109 00:13:06,974 --> 00:13:09,598 They feel it's more likely that I can be trusted. 110 00:13:11,198 --> 00:13:24,313 So much of that concept in the Western world is so foreign to us, outside of the Catholic faith, which still has nuns and monks and monasteries and so forth. 111 00:13:24,954 --> 00:13:31,501 But I think they have become so modernized in most of their dealings with the public. 112 00:13:31,521 --> 00:13:32,202 There's a few there. 113 00:13:32,663 --> 00:13:37,508 I guess they're cloistered, but most of them are out in public. 114 00:13:37,528 --> 00:13:39,771 And they're quite different, really, from... 115 00:13:39,751 --> 00:13:43,748 from Buddhist monks and their activities, particularly in other countries. 116 00:13:43,849 --> 00:13:48,107 But outside of that, so many of the people in the United States 117 00:13:49,336 --> 00:14:04,903 are of the opinion that any teacher that they may have, whether it's a preacher or a rabbi and so forth, first of all, they're usually married, they have children like normal people, they hold down a job like normal people, they have a normal home, normal lifestyles and everything. 118 00:14:05,484 --> 00:14:14,820 That's what the populace of the Western world looks to for their inspiration and for their teaching. 119 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:21,674 Anything outside of that norm becomes totally foreign to us. 120 00:14:22,135 --> 00:14:32,657 That's a good reason, I think, why they would be more comfortable with a lay Buddhist teacher even, which you find in some circles. 121 00:14:32,637 --> 00:14:41,082 But one, I think, quick defense to that or quick response to that is what we're teaching is quite different. 122 00:14:41,844 --> 00:14:46,478 What we're teaching undercuts or cuts away or 123 00:14:48,263 --> 00:14:50,907 tears away the concept of marriage. 124 00:14:53,210 --> 00:15:06,931 Yeah, sure, as a Buddhist you can be married and have sex and so on, but it's quite clear even from the outset that that's a part of what we're trying to give up, where it's not in Christianity, it's not in Judaism, it's not in any of these religions. 125 00:15:07,952 --> 00:15:16,465 How clear... Buddhism is about giving up attachment. 126 00:15:16,445 --> 00:15:27,629 You can have a teacher who plays tennis and has a wife or a husband and a car and money and a television and so on. 127 00:15:29,052 --> 00:15:35,787 But unlike religions that don't specify the need to give up attachments, here we have 128 00:15:35,767 --> 00:16:05,267 a conflict right here we have a teacher who's teaching giving up attachments and clearly isn't interested in giving up attachments or is only gone halfway so yeah they can teach sure and they could be great people great Buddhists but they can't be considered to be the ideal or to be striving for the ideal because they're not striving or you know could be but not obviously striving anyway 129 00:16:05,247 --> 00:16:11,594 And it's not clear, because lay people can be good teachers and can be perfect Buddhists, but you see what I'm getting at. 130 00:16:11,695 --> 00:16:13,837 There's a lot more required in Buddhism. 131 00:16:14,738 --> 00:16:29,095 I understand and agree with that, but on the same, so many people, I think, in the Western world, are of the opinion, right or wrong, that 132 00:16:29,851 --> 00:16:35,157 How can you tell me how to live my life as a lay person when you're not a lay person? 133 00:16:35,558 --> 00:16:37,300 You haven't experienced this. 134 00:16:37,921 --> 00:16:41,726 They look at that a lot of times, I think, as Catholic priests. 135 00:16:42,046 --> 00:16:42,927 You're not a father. 136 00:16:42,967 --> 00:16:44,990 You're not a parent. 137 00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:46,471 You're supported by the church. 138 00:16:46,491 --> 00:16:47,773 You don't work for your own living. 139 00:16:48,213 --> 00:16:53,580 How can you come back, Ben, and try to teach and tell me you're not experiencing that? 140 00:16:53,560 --> 00:17:00,207 You don't have the experience to tell me as a married parent, working parent. 141 00:17:02,229 --> 00:17:06,513 There's almost like a disconnect in that situation. 142 00:17:06,573 --> 00:17:07,094 For sure. 143 00:17:07,194 --> 00:17:10,698 And I totally am willing to, on the one hand, admit that. 144 00:17:10,738 --> 00:17:17,104 And I could even entertain an answer by saying, yeah, sure, because that's not what I'm telling you to do. 145 00:17:17,144 --> 00:17:19,787 I'm saying give up your married life and become a monk. 146 00:17:19,767 --> 00:17:22,192 So you can take that tack. 147 00:17:23,855 --> 00:17:36,339 Most Buddhist monks and Buddhists go the other way and claim to have some knowledge to provide for married life, which is kind of disappointing because they go far too much to that degree. 148 00:17:36,399 --> 00:17:39,646 And they say, yes, yes, I'll teach you how to be a good lay person. 149 00:17:39,666 --> 00:17:40,688 And you've got a good point there. 150 00:17:40,708 --> 00:17:41,910 How can a monk do that? 151 00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:48,719 But I think more important than that is, how can you do that when that's going in the wrong direction? 152 00:17:49,240 --> 00:18:02,278 Yes, you can accept the fact that there are lay people with wives and children, or husbands and children and so on, but that's clearly not what you should be preaching. 153 00:18:02,258 --> 00:18:05,665 or it should not be all of what you're preaching. 154 00:18:05,946 --> 00:18:19,895 And if someone has a really, really bad married life, you should really include, at least include in your teaching, the option that they might give it up and become a monk, because that really is what the Buddha prescribed as the ideal. 155 00:18:19,975 --> 00:18:21,077 Now, 156 00:18:21,057 --> 00:18:23,681 There are other arguments you can give to that. 157 00:18:23,701 --> 00:18:41,445 I think the fact that a person is not, you know, there's, I read this thing where this man who was a bachelor was very able to describe married life because he was outside of it. 158 00:18:41,425 --> 00:19:01,442 because he had never been married and so he was able to show people what they couldn't see because they were looking at it from the inside and there's that argument I'm not going to push that sort of argument, I'm fully willing to accept the fact that I don't have much knowledge of how to raise children but 159 00:19:01,422 --> 00:19:03,785 it doesn't seem to get that much in the way. 160 00:19:04,145 --> 00:19:13,696 And I don't feel, feel, or I do feel quite confident giving general Buddhist advice to parents and children. 161 00:19:14,337 --> 00:19:18,682 But, you know, as I've said before, in the end it just gets too complicated for me. 162 00:19:18,702 --> 00:19:24,990 And I just say, you know, look, if you really want the answer, it's to give this all up and don't get involved with it. 163 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:27,493 You know, how can I, how will I raise my children? 164 00:19:27,533 --> 00:19:28,594 Don't have children. 165 00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:37,268 here's a question along those very same lines okay wait let me stop this one