So someone says, I am ordaining in the forest tradition as a samanera soon.
I will stay as a novice for about four to six months, then I will get married.
To another novice?
Like at the monastery?
I have a strong desire to become a monk, hence I put it off for long.
Wrong?
I assume you'll disrobe before you get married.
Is that the key here?
It's not like after four to six months that you get married to... No, silly joke, sorry.
I mean, the reason for joking is it's such a difficult question.
You know, it's not really according to the tradition to leave the home life with the expectation of getting more caught up in the home life afterwards.
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to really decide to be a monk and then make plans of leaving later.
Yeah.
So if you want to get married, well, get married.
I mean, the reason why it's a difficult question is because really people are doing it every day, and mostly in Thailand.
Maybe Burma, I'm not sure.
But for sure in Thailand, probably Cambodia, Laos.
It's a big thing.
Ordained for a week, ordained for a month, ordained for three months.
Four to six months is pretty impressive by today's standards.
But, I mean, it's not just going on a retreat.
Becoming a monk is taking on a lifestyle.
It's like taking on a profession.
And I've gone on about why I'm personally not inclined to support temporary ordinations, because I've seen what they do.
My monastery nowadays, every other day has an ordination.
The first problem is that it inclines people to think of the monkhood as a temporary thing.
And so, you know, rather than taking it seriously and saying you ordain to dedicate your life to it, they say, oh yeah, ordination, that's what you do before you get married.
And that's really how many people look at ordination.
They're very happy that their children ordain, but after a month, if they decide they want to stay on, oh, there's hell to pay.
Ordain for more than a month?
Isn't a month enough?
That kind of thing.
This is really sad that people actually develop these ideas.
The second reason is that the monks who do stay on wind up spending all of their time
organizing ordinations, you know, the shaving, the robes, the bowl, checking everything, teaching the applicants how to do the chanting, how to do the ceremonies, and then teaching the new monks who, you know, sometimes people there was recently or a year or two ago I heard about there was an ordination and that night after they had ordained, one of the monks got drunk.
So
you're dealing with people who have no clue about the Vinaya and about the rules, and you have to teach them from scratch.
That's, if done properly, that's a difficult task.
Now, what happens is it's usually not done properly, and so the monks, you know, sit around smoking and chatting, and they have money, and they buy food, and they buy, you know, they eat in the evening, and maybe they, you know, well, I mean, not maybe, I mean, I've been in, I've seen how it goes.
They, they, um,
What's the euphemism?
They engage in sexual... They pleasure themselves.
I don't know.
How do you say that?
Those are not words that I use very often.
So they break a lot of actually sometimes serious rules.
So that's incredibly tiring for the senior monks to have to deal with.
And it...
takes them away from practice, study, and teaching, that they could be better used elsewhere.
If someone comes for a month and they say, I want to come and meditate, but I also want to ordain, what a waste of time when they could be spending that month meditating to have to teach them how to put a robe on correctly.
And in Thailand, that's a big deal, how to put the robe on correctly, how to walk on alms round,
this and that and the rules, how many rules you have to keep.
This isn't something that's designed for short term.
It takes you five years to become a good monk.
And if you don't have five years to do it, then you're just going to spend all that time training for nothing.
Well, okay, maybe it's useful to deal with married life.
See how discipline could be useful for dealing with...
having a family.
And that's the argument that they use.
Anyway, so you have that.
Then you have the fact that it brings money and it brings
Well, yeah, it brings money and it brings fame and it brings affluence to the monastery and so the monks wind up not only wasting their time but getting caught up in and focusing their energies on the ordinations because they get paid for it or they get some kind of, you know, it looks good to have many, many monks ordaining and they get prestige, they get power, they get fame and so on.
and so they they focus on on it kind of like a business this happens and finally it destroys monastic harmony when you have these monks who are misbehaving and when the monastery is you know at least half the monks will be new monks and that's a constant state so those you know half the monks will always be
causing trouble and so by the time you teach them how to how to fit in then they leave and then you've got a new badge and so the monastery never really feels like a monastery and there's a lot of stress and tension and so on so the results that it has from what I've seen are not positive is it against the rules technically it's not against the rules
And if that's all you've got, then that's all you've got.
But I think the biggest point is the misconception of it as being the proper thing to do, which leads, as I said, people to become complacent and undervalue the monastic life.
That's really the start of it.
Because if someone says, yeah, I want to ordain temporarily, well, you don't have to forbid them.
You don't have to say, no, we don't do temporary ordinations.
Some places do.
I mean, I might even do that.
I'm not really interested in allowing... Well, in some cases, you know, I would allow people to ordain temporarily, usually with the thought that they want to ordain temporarily because they have something to do later.
So, okay, they can disrobe and go take care of that and then come back and ordain long term.
That kind of thing makes sense to me.
But the idea of ordaining before marriage is personally something I wouldn't do.
But the point more than that is...
It should be understood that this isn't what monastic life is about.
Anyone have any thoughts?
It's kind of something you have to have experienced first hand to have much of a feeling about.
I did see last year there was a bit of a thing going around where you could be a monk for a month.
Yeah, I commented on that.
It wasn't really well-received.
Well, I think they were kind enough, but we had a little bit of difference of opinion.
I would imagine it takes probably just a couple of years to really overcome attachment.
Or lifetimes, yeah.
Or, you know... Yeah, I was going to say.
A long time just to do that.
Sure.
No, don't talk about giving up attachments.
It takes...
It takes a month to learn how to put your robe on.
The way it generally goes is after a monk, you're so proud of yourself for being able to put your robe on that you start to feel like you're really the most awesome monk in existence.
So you act like a jerk for a year, for 11 months.
And when you get to a year, you say, wow, I've been a monk for a year.
I made a lot of mistakes, but now I'm an excellent monk.
After a year, you don't have this insane ego, but you have a chip on your shoulder thinking, I'm so much better than the rest of these monks.
Look at these monks who have been monks for 10 years, 20 years, and they're doing nothing.
You're really proud of yourself.
spend the next four years acting like a little bit of a jerk and when you hit five years then you say whoa that was those five years were tough but now i'm a good monk now i'm now i'm free i don't have to stay with my teacher so i am qualified to go out and teach and i don't have to live under the dependence of anyone it's the rule that at five years then you can go on your own and you spend the next five years you know
Not acting like a jerk anymore, but with a chip on your shoulder.
Proud of yourself and your accomplishment.
And then after 10 years, well, that's where I am.
So now I have to learn how the next 10 years are going to be.
But it feels a lot more like you start to say, well, now I'm just a monk.
I don't think it's quite that.
But I would say probably when you get to 20 years,
That's where it seems.
If you look at monks who have been 20 years, whether they're good monks or bad monks, they really stop thinking about being a monk.
And they just are.
They are who they are.
And there's no more of this.
There's no more counting, right?
Because you see, you're always counting how long until you get to a year, and then how long you get to five years.
And there's all this stuff about seniority.
So you're always thinking, oh, this guy's more senior than me, and
And then the new monks come, and you're proud because they're less senior to you, and you sit in front of them and chanting.
There's all this kind of rivalry when a monk comes to visit, and he sits in front of you, and then suddenly there's someone senior to you and stuff.
So you're always counting the years, and you're saying, now I'm five years.
And of course, after five years, you're counting it, because after five years, you can go on your own.
And after five years, you're not a teacher.
At 10 years, you can actually be a teacher.
and a teacher of monks, and you can actually theoretically ordain other monks.
So, you know, I was counting that because that's been a big part of my work, to not have to rely on others to create a monastic community.
So, I think after 10 years, you know, I'm not really counting anymore.
I'm not thinking, oh boy, how many years left till I get to 20?
It's not...
not really doesn't doesn't mean as much anymore so I don't know that wasn't that wasn't so specifically directed towards what you're saying but definitely definitely it takes many many years to settle down as a monk I would say really ten if you're not planning to be a monk for ten years you're not really going to become a monk now the thing is he's saying about becoming a novice which is a little bit interesting because
There's even less to discuss.
And actually, or to learn, actually the monk for a month, turns out they're not becoming monks, they're becoming samaneras as well, who only have ten precepts.
So it's debatable.
You could say, well, that's an interesting halfway.
And certainly the ordination puts a lot less stress on the monastery.
But...
So it's a lot less of an issue to become a novice than it is to become a temporary monk.
But you're still, you're taking on the robes, you're ordaining.
If you want to leave home for a while, you take eight precepts, and that's established.
If you want to go to stay in the monastery, even staying in the monastery with eight precepts, that's really a cool thing to do.
But if you're coming
with a fiancé to ordain as a novice, it's kind of disrespectful, I think.
I don't want to diss you or anything, but it's not you that I'm talking about, this person who asked this, it's the general tendency which is prevalent.
I mean, my teacher does it, they ordain temporary monks all the time.
That's the culture in Thailand.
It's in general, I think, something that... It's a shame that it's so prevalent in my mind.
Maybe it's done with the hope that they'll stay.
Honestly, I agree with what you're saying.
I agree with that completely.
I think that's one of the reasons why my teacher does it.
and well I don't think I mean it's easy to see because after one month and he's pushing them to stay two months and that's really how it's got to work in Thailand if you want monks to stay long-term you just ordain 20 of them and hope that one of them sticks I was ordained there were 18 of us when I ordained I'm the only one left but of course that was that was the case all of the other 17 or no 15 of them were
were clear that they were ordaining temporarily in honor of the king, on the king's birthday.
And there were three foreigners, and I think all three of us had at least some idea to stay, but the other two disrobed.
Sounds pretty strict.
The whole thing about the robe that you're talking about, that sounds like a ritual in itself.
What do you mean?
Wearing the robe?
So you were talking about it takes you just a certain amount of time just to learn how to put your robe on.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, not in Sri Lanka so much.
You see, we wear it quite simply.
But if you look at my How to Meditate videos, when I was wearing a robe like a Thai monk, that takes work.
It takes some time.
And we have another way to wear it when you go outside, where you put it over both shoulders and roll it all up.
That takes about a month to get.
to get skilled at.
I mean, after a couple of days, even I can teach a person it in a day so that they are able to go out the next day.
But for them to keep it on and to be comfortable in it, well, that takes at least a month of doing it every day.
I saw an interesting question here.
Wait, someone's, this person's actually continuing this, if we can.
I think it's the same person.
What if it is marriage out of compassion?
I don't really want to get married, but I see how me becoming this person's, being in this person's life will help them more than if I become a monk for a longer time.
Whoa.
Marriage out of compassion?
I'm sorry, that sounds like a bad reason to get married.
I can see it, but I don't have any really good comments.
Yeah, I have comments.
You know, helping people.
What is the best way to help a person?
Who can help a person?
I guess I have comments because I've dealt with this.
I've dealt with women who have asked me to... Not asked directly, but who have made it quite clear what their intention was and wanted an answer.
And even recently, there was a case with...
I had a case where I was being asked questions about marriage that were quite pointed and had to go through this and so I took this person through a long kind of like we went on a trip together I mean we sat there and we talked and I led her through this issue that she was obviously having and
The main point of it was how much more benefit comes from having a spiritual relationship than from having a corporeal one, corporeal, physical relationship.
So when you become a monk, you, from a Buddhist point, if you take on the greatest role you can ever have,
in relating to other people you are the representative of the Buddha you have direct and dedicated access continuous access to the Buddha's teaching you are living breathing you know you are immersed in Buddhism so your
Theoretically, your role and the relationship that you have to all of the people who are close to you is optimum.
You can relate to them in a way that is completely pure.
You can love them.
I mean, a big part of our conversation was about love with this person.
because you can very much love people.
There's nothing wrong with love.
In fact, it's a great thing.
It leads people to find happiness and to be at peace in their mind, to love.
So the only benefit of marriage or the only
missing from a monastic relationship that marriage has is is based on attachment and so the question you have to ask is whether attachment is beneficial to anyone of course there are people who believe that but certainly as Buddhists we don't believe it if you think it will help this person to be in their life then well we have two parts to that the one part is
your attachment to helping this person.
Why is this person so important to be helped when the world is full of people to be helped?
Why?
Because it may be as a monk that you're not able to directly help this person, right?
But certainly you will be able to help whoever it is that you're around.
If this person decides when you're a monk they don't want to have anything to do with you, then it may be that, yes, you can't help that person.
But what is it that's making you want to help this person?
It's an attachment.
The other thing is, if you do stay with them and if they do stay with you, you become a monk and they are still very interested in you.
I mean, I know a married couple where he's married and he goes to visit them.
He goes to visit his wife.
He goes to visit his daughter, his granddaughter.
And he acts like a very good monk.
He is a very good monk.
I'm quite impressed by him.
His wife is a very good lay Buddhist and very much interested in meditation practice.
And they get along.
I mean, you kind of get the feeling they have a bit of a difficult relationship, or they had a bit of a difficult relationship even before he ordained.
But when I go to Bangkok, I will visit.
Probably I'll see his daughter again, and probably his ex or his wife.
I might even see him if he comes down from Chiang Mai.
And so I think he's done them a world of good to provide them with someone who's in the monastic circle, so that whenever they want, they can go and practice, and they're that much closer to Buddhism as a result.
At the very least, they have a reminder.
So I certainly can't see how getting married with someone could be better than becoming a monk, unless, as I say, you're probably attached to this person.
then the help doesn't have anything to do with being married to them.
The help comes in spite of getting married to them.
I would say, well, if you want to get married, that's the attachment.
That's not out of wanting to help them.
It doesn't mean that you can't help them married.
But the marriage part, I don't think, because it's based on attachment.
And this is why the whole thing about, this is why we have this crazy situation where
Christians get married to Buddhists.
We were talking about this yesterday and Lama Kunga said, what did he say?
Isn't that absurd or something?
Just talking about it.
Don't understand that at all, I think he said.
He had something very clever to say.
And the point is that you don't, how that can happen is because you don't marry someone or have a relationship with someone because
of spirit.
It's not a spiritual choice.
You make the choice based on attachment.
People get, I mean that's generalizing and you say you have your reasons for getting married but I would question them or I would ask yourself if you're sure that that's something that actually helps or conversely
puts you in a situation where you're no longer able to objectively help this person or other people.
Anyone else?
Well, I've never been married, so I don't feel like I should bestow advice on marriage.
Oh, come on.
Dude, anyway.
I've never been married, and I can bestow advice on marriage.
I mean, well, sometimes the worst people to bestow advice are the people who are in the thick of it.
If you're married and you're doing it all wrong, well, I suppose you could still tell people what's wrong.
I don't know.
I mean, when I think about the value of marriage and, you know, I think it basically is just two people sharing their experience together.
And in and of itself, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
That can be a good thing, a great thing.
But I see a lot of...
insecure people looking to the other person to complete them.
You know, the old, you complete me.
And I'm not so sure if that's such a good way to look at it, as the one person completing the other.
I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing your experience with another person.
But I don't quite get on board with the whole idea that someone else completes you.
I don't think that's a good reason to get married, because you're looking for someone to fill the void.