member of our community, William, says, I want to get a divorce.
My wife will suffer.
She says that she will kill herself.
If she does suffer or kills herself, I fear it will affect my practice.
What can I tell her to minimize her suffering?
That's really significant.
It's a significant question.
Well, you could start off by telling her
It wasn't her fault.
You want the divorce.
You're breaking the commitment that you're really the bad guy.
And maybe she might pity you instead of pitying herself for being brought into that relationship under the premise that it was for the rest of her life.
Maybe that would be helpful.
Logically, if she commits suicide, kill herself, that's going to be her fault.
Well, I would suggest before getting a divorce perhaps doing a meditation course because we had a student once here in our group and she was about to get a divorce
She had one kid and went on the way.
And she came to practice meditation.
And then after the meditation course, she said everything just changed.
And she decided that there was no need for a divorce.
That they were already happy together.
So that would be my suggestion.
If the person asking the question would like to be
a full basic meditation course that might change things for him.
I was going to say something very similar or start very similar because we can't miss that premise that you don't have to, you know, there is another option.
Divorce isn't the only answer.
So often we create problems for ourselves by us making assumptions like this.
Well, I have to get divorced, so what do I do?
Well,
Do you have to get divorced?
I mean, even for example, a person doesn't have to become divorced to become a monk.
Why I think it's significant, beyond what Alex was saying, is that it doesn't mean anything.
It doesn't have to mean anything.
Suicide?
No, divorce.
Divorce or marriage.
Okay.
whether you are married or divorced for a Buddhist unless there's some practical reason that I don't see is
really a matter of convenience and from the sounds of it is very important to her.
When you're dealing with people who are suicidal things like this really make the difference.
I mean you could not divorce her and just say well I need to spend some time on my own and might find that she's actually far more rational than if you were to say well we need to get divorced but we can still be together and you know for example
be together because the symbolism is very important to the person you know this is a person who is obviously very much attached to self and therefore thinks that by killing themselves they're going to end their suffering and so on they're in a state where these kind of things can smallest things can set them off so even if you don't even if you're sure like you know it would be nice if the problem could just go away and you could live your life continue living but if you're somehow sure that you're incompatible with this person
it may be that there are more skillful ways to go about this than these cuts.
And it comes back to, sorry to just go on a little bit more, it comes back to how Buddhists always, people always do this when they approach Buddhism.
They try to find a trick that's going to solve their problems.
I'm going to run off to the forest and become a monk and that's going to solve all my problems.
Or I'm going to give up all my possessions and that's going to solve my problems.
Or I'm going to get a divorce.
you this isn't the answer and often it's much more skillful to to stay with the problem and to to deal with the the realities because divorce is not a reality that's a fairly uh it was just a striking question because it's it sounds so life and death yeah so you have to play no no no most of the
It takes care and caution.
I was going to ask one thing.
For the vow holders in the Buddha Dharma, in my tradition where I took, the vow to take refuge and the precepts go that we're not to give up the triple gem for even the cost of our life or a joke, and that's one of the vows I took.
So, you know, I can understand, for instance, myself, or maybe even, you know, yourself, that if we were confronted, like, let's say, an Islamic takeover, and we're told that we must renounce the triple gem and become Muslim and go to the mosque and everything, and if we don't deny the triple gem,
then and the dharma then we must face death i would i would think that a lot of the ordained would say well you're gonna have to kill me and i i can sympathize with this woman in if she's took those that sense of vows on that level and unfortunate that uh in the worldly sense of marriage
those vows are bilateral they're not unilateral like they are in the buddha dharma i make that vow with myself you know it has nothing to do with if somebody else decides that they don't want to keep their vow you know it is different it's a lot more worldly but i i can still sympathize with that feeling of well i i've taken these vows for my life you know i guess my life now has no
meaning or no worse.
I cannot, you know, I have to now sacrifice my life.
That is where the danger comes in.
But I can sympathize with her, you know, I can.
Yeah, but if they divorce, there's going to be less suffering for them.
Clearly, one of them don't want to be together.
So if they just divorce, there's going to be less suffering.
And if
and first of all, psychology shows if somebody talks about suicide most of the time don't commit suicide so the cases of suicide look different yeah but there's an insensitivity there Lucas that you're not being sensitive to this woman's plight I don't see how divorce is going to help them what is going to help them is to give up their clinging
Alex was perfectly right.
Better than get a divorce, go for meditation.
That's what you need.
That's what she needs.
That's what we all need.
We don't need divorces.
We don't need marriages.
I think it'd be funny.
What if somehow, for some reason, you could put me in a position where it was just so obvious that I was going to hurt lots of people if I didn't get married as a monk.
Maybe I could even do it because it's meaningless.
I couldn't kiss the bride at the end.
No, it's just a ridiculous example, but
My only point is there's nothing to a divorce.
If it means so much to her, put it aside for now.
That shouldn't be your biggest concern.
Yeah, really.
I mean, about what I've said, divorce, I didn't mean, you know, just if they don't want to be with each other, then why stick to this?
cold she does that's the thing she's really she's ready to kill herself to stay with him yeah but he doesn't so well you don't feel sympathy for her or empathy for her she's yeah she's very attached she suffered but she suffers isn't she well she's suffering if he leaves yeah and he's gonna suffer if she if he don't well he's a meditator he can take anything or more than her anyway
He's not going to kill himself if he has to stay with her, is he?
No.
I mean, I know William is one of us.
He's not done a meditation course, but he started meditating.
I have a question.
Is it related or should I quit this video?
Because we're recording these one by one.
Yes, it's perfectly related.
Okay, go for it.
My question for Lucas is, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
I get it.
Sorry?
What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Like, you cannot just... You cannot just clap with one hand, right?
So, like, if there's an argument between two people... Okay, okay, no smart voice cracks.
Yeah.
There's an argument between two people, right?
That's something like two hands... Yeah, but I tried to explain the law.
It's just a delusion.
Hold on a second.
The law is a delusion.
Hold on one second.
Hold on one sec.
So, you know, if there's an argument between two people, what is the root of the, what is the cause of the argument?
The cause of the argument is attachment to self.
I am right.
Hmm.
So, is two men... Hey, hey, tell you something.
Yeah, I was, uh, I'm constantly arguing with my family and... Hold on, let me finish for a sec.
So, so, if, if
if both of them are arguing, then the solution has to be to take away the attachment to self.
Reduce the attachment to self on one side.
And then you can't clap.
You can't have an argument.
That's true.
There's a little bit more to that thing.
And the problem is this.
You know, it's not even just argumentation.
It's even in
the peaceful pursuits because you know while one person is trying to be happy and another person is trying to be happy you know this is where conflicts do come in so to say that the root of the problem is argumentation really may not be the truth maybe the root of the problem is happiness and the perception of what is happy because
You know, you are completely happy with your companion so long as you're on the path and you're both going at the same speed and nobody's looking in the other direction and nobody's pushing or pulling or lagging behind.
I don't know.
But when that happens, all of a sudden you go, oh, this is no longer part of my happiness.
And that's when you start feeling the aversion.
Yeah, but it seems like I look at a totally different case.
I see the man who don't want to be with her, and he suffers.
And I see a woman that she suffers because she doesn't want to be with her.
And she will suffer otherwise.
No, no, I don't think you understand.
She wants very much to be with her.
What I see is two people perfectly happy creating this delusion that they're going to be happier
on the other side of the fence.
Marriage is a delusion.
They're gonna be happy with each other.
That's a delusion.
Marriage is a conventional agreement between two people.
It's not really a delusion.
Maybe the happiness that you want to project and foresee in it
You know, the happy ever after and the sunset.
Maybe that's the delusion, but no.
Marriage is a contract between two people, and it should be taken rationally and with a lot of forethought.
It's not a delusion.
It's actually a contract with another person.
of your intentions on how... It is delusion, it is delusion.
No, he's saying, I think Lucas is saying that the delusion is that you could find happiness.
Because that woman wants to commit suicide.
That is a delusion.
The deluded person is going to say that.
Because she thinks she's going to be happy in a marriage.
But the happy is inside.
But the question, Lucas, is how are you going to help her?
You think you're going to help her?
How are you going to do?
What are you going to do?
If she...
if you want to cut the tail of the cat, what are you going to do?
Are you going to slice it bit by bit, or are you going to cut the whole tail?
I disagree.
I think that's a bad example.
Yeah, because there are only two choices in that example.
Nowadays, I would say get some good stem cells for the cat, and instead of cutting off the tail, just remove that little bit, and then put on the stem cells and regrow the tail.
yeah I think if you're if you know if you want to have to or you know you have to get rid of the problem from the whole problem yeah but you see it it has nothing to do with the divorce the problem is this woman's attachment and I disagree totally with the marriage yeah okay if a person is
Suppose a person is addicted to heroin.
Yeah, but we talk about this case.
We talk about the person.
But any case, I mean, attachment is not something that you can remove with a slight strike of the hand.
Her attachment is not going to go away because he divorces her.
Well, you know, you have to give up.
If you could just cut off the person's attachment in one strike, like you can cut off a cat's tail, then by all means, cut it all off at once.
But
This is trying to find shortcuts.
You're trying to, you're applying the wrong solution to the problem.
The problem of attachment is something incredibly deep and difficult to deal with and to heal.
It doesn't come from things like divorce.
Oh yes, let's make her suffer.
Let's take her away from her attachment.
um you know artificially take her away and and somehow expect her to heal people don't do that they they can become poisoned as a result i agree that there's something to what you say and that you you you have to um you know she has to make a a break somehow but it's not going to come from kim divorcing her
It will come from him being clear that this is not how, you know, for example, this is not where, you know, it's about the truth.
The truth is not divorce.
You can't divorce someone and say, there, you see, this is how things should be.
Because they're not how it should be.
Divorce, marriage is not how it should be.
It comes from showing her that this attachment that we have is only causing us suffering.
It has nothing to do with divorce.
It's sitting down with her and saying, you know, look, we really want to be happy.
Let's find a way to be happy.
I've had a meditator recently who I'm dead sure was in love with me because, you know, as buff and handsome as I am.
And why I know, I mean, it wasn't ego at all.
It was that she was really persistent in her questions, in her words, in her looks, in everything.
And I've dealt with this before.
I've had women almost propose to me.
It's something to do with being a teacher.
You really get under their... I mean, it's such an intimate relationship.
And that's exactly the point, is that it should be an intimate relationship.
But it is a pure intimate relationship.
The relationship is not based on attachment.
So you sit down with these people.
and you you you go with them you say yes you know love is a good thing and you teach them and yes yes you know yes so isn't it you lead them through it without attachment yes so um let's say the break the delusion so he should break the delusion to in order to help her so she
cheech that create operate you can't break it was and you have to you have to understand create understanding is she going to understand right away like immediately understand because in divorce is you know he's gonna understand it she's gonna send if he sits down with them and leads us through it or someone else suffering for him on the other hand work with a real important point i think you know this is what
Bhikkhu is trying to really relate to you is that see whether or not they have this title marriage or not you know it doesn't matter because the whole point is to have good relationships with everyone whatever definition we have
So your idea of saying, cut them out, cut them out of your life, it's not really a solution because it's not addressing, you know, even a fundamental problem.
Okay, maybe... Okay, what kind of solution is not... The point is, that I'm trying to state, is that, well, you know, maybe they can't live with each other right now.
Maybe they do get a divorce.
You follow?
But the idea that you have to isolate the other person, cut them off as if they are a cancer or a rotten body part, that is not really should be our approach to having difficult situations with other people.
Very well said.
And this is what, you know, is trying to be conveyed to you.
And that is difficult because, you know,
you are actually reinforcing that whole attraction repulsion doctrine which we're trying to convey well you know that is part of the fundamental problem the fundamental problem is this whole idea divorce and cutting off and well if I'm cut off I kill myself and you know the truth of the matter is you know maybe they
If they really care about each other, they're not going to cut each other off at all.
They're going to make the proper transitions in life.
With each other, even if that with each other takes on the label of divorce.
And it's responsible of him to convey that.
Because if indeed he's a practitioner, and if he indeed loved her, and they were friends...
well we don't know these things but he's asking he's asking us as practitioners and he's a practitioner himself what would be the best good and the best good is to not sever relationships because uh wasn't it earlier even today that uh you know bonti here was saying
repeating a quote from a suture where the buddha said or it was yesterday where it was actually good friendships that was the point of the teaching today yeah so yeah right so to cut off or even have that mind state is really what we have to circumnavigate away from i think because we don't want
to take that attitude regardless of whether that just give me a second regardless of whether you know who's right and wrong in this situation I think there's the philosophical question that Lucas is asking or idea that he's presenting is that
the idea of cutting it off immediately.
So if there were some way to effect an immediate end to suffering or to solve the problem immediately, we should go for that.
My point, and I think to some extent, I don't want to speak for him, but to some extent Lucas's point is that it has to go, that the problems are much more complicated than that.
and have to be dealt with much more slowly.
I mean, it's one thing you learn in practicing Buddhism is that you're not going to become enlightened tomorrow.
Not likely.
Some people do.
For most of us, our problems don't just go away.
You do one meditation course and think you're enlightened.
You go back home and a couple of days later you're yelling at your parents again.
The problems that we have inside are incredibly complicated.
And they're compounded by lifetime after lifetime of, you know, we're just messes of tricks and complications that are going to take an incredible amount of care to do away with.
So the point I think that we're trying to make is you're not
untying the knot by by doing that you're just you know cutting the string which isn't a solution to the problem because you cut the string you lose the rope hey you don't have to agree uh that's my opinion i'm just saying my opinion that's what i would do hundred percent because i would say myself a lot of suffering the first a lot of suffering and because we all know that uh that
uh... you know you might be a lot and uh... after few months you're not in love anymore and he thought it was the way there is that there is going to be much less suffering for them no but lou said very clearly that they may come to divorce but that shouldn't be the first step i don't say like divorce divorce on the paper i'm just saying that
if they just let it go, give it up.
If it doesn't work, let it go.
But she's not at that state yet.
You have to get her to a state of being able to let go.
Right now she's quite obviously not letting go.
She's quite the opposite, clinging more and more to the point where she might cling to the extent of killing herself.
So I think divorce is a little bit further down the line than you're suggesting.
I think the point is that not rushing to...
Not rushing to that conclusion.
I prefer to cut details straight away rather than beat by beat.
But preference is not a reason to do.
Preference may be wrong.
So be careful.
But would you say, you know, if someone said to you, there could be other options, would you be willing to consider those?
Would you still want to cut it off right away?
Someone said, well, maybe there's a few other options to consider.
Oh, speaking of cutting off, it's coming up to four hours.
Somebody said, somebody said, thinking about things is very difficult, but doing them is very easy.
Maybe we just do this and stop thinking about it, it'll be easier.
So just stop thinking about divorce, stop thinking about marriage.
Just do everything to stop suffering.
That's an interesting theory.
I don't necessarily subscribe to it myself, but
just because something is easy to do doesn't make it right just because something is difficult doesn't make it wrong even thinking and talking about it because it's suffering not necessarily sometimes talking about it brings up an alternative helps do away with wrong views the Buddha said talking about the Dhamma in a timely manner or from time to time
is a great blessing.
It's one of the things that does away with wrong view.
One of the five things is conversation.
You know, I do want to bring up this sutra known as the Single Vata Sutra.
Maybe you're familiar with it.
Oh, for sure.
Where it does describe that we do have familial obligations once we become, you know, if we choose the laid life,
those obligations that we have to wives and children, and even our parents, and in the case of being married, even our in-laws, they're to be treated with deferential respect.
So, you know, the idea of cutting off these relationships, actually, the Buddha says, is a karmic downfall.
You know, because we
we engaged in them?
You know, did we not engage with them with some degree of knowing what we were getting involved with?
Well, yes.
Well, you could think, yeah, you have the rights to your opinion.
What I say is probably
I agree with that.
You could say, that's wrong.
That's how I said that I would do.
If I can cut in, someone is asking us something that is quite confrontational and we'll have to respond to.
How to talk about these persons when you don't even have enough knowledge about their personalities?
You can talk and argue against each other's ideas here, but it won't help the two.
I think we've got five minutes.
I disagree because I think we're trying to give general principles of whether to rush or not to rush into things.
So if we take these two people out of the question, we're talking about whether one should
should follow one's desired course of path immediately or whether one should be a little bit more cautious about it and I would say rushing into things when there are obvious drawbacks to it is a potential for disaster because you say the person will be happier after they've done it that's not always the case and that's borne out by experience I know people who have
cut everything off in their lives, come to meditate and find that they're totally lost and have no ability to meditate, after a week they run away and go home and never hear from them again because they didn't cut anything off.
They weren't actually able to... You know, like this man, here's a wonderful example, this monk who cut off his penis.
And you know what the Buddha said to him?
This actually happened.
It's in the Vinaya.
He had so much lust that he cut off his penis.
And the Buddha said about him, the Buddha said to the monks, this monk has cut off one thing when he should have cut off another.
And then he laid down a rule against cutting off your penis.
True story.
Okay, I think we're in five minutes where our broadcast is going to end, so we can just keep going until it does.
But thanks, everyone.
This has been great.
Real discussion and I think quite helpful.
Some of those later questions were hopefully of great use to people.
I do want to make one comment, though, about the whole marriage argument.
It just hit me.
Well, you know,
The desire that's being talked about is actually the divorce.
The marriage is fine because there's no longer any desire to be married.
So the marriage itself isn't even a problem.
Now this guy is saying, oh, I'm going to be happy if I can only fulfill this new desire.
And when we really understand the doctrine,
You know, oh, you know, that is where we really don't know where happiness is.
You know, is he really going to be happier getting a divorce?
That's the real question.
Is he really going to be happy with the potential of getting a divorce, having his wife kill herself, and then realize, oh, he really never wanted a divorce in the first place.
Now he misses everything he loved.
He misunderstood no longer having desire, but just his marriage was just life as normal every day.
Well, he took that as being boredom and not realizing that that was actually happiness.
Yeah, but we don't know these people.
We shouldn't even talk about it.
That would be tragic.
You know, the reason is because it's not that person.
It's
it's the same story over and over and over again with a thousand a million faces i'm not happy i'll be happy with this yeah it's the same story yeah but these people could be serious or they might be childish 99.99 they're childish we're trying we're trying our best and i think we should have a rule
to talk in generalities rather than to try to give too much specific advice.
If you're in America, you could be sued for doing that.
We're just talking general and we should always refer back to Buddhism.
We shouldn't ask questions like we don't know these people because we shouldn't try to know them or try to give them specific advice.
It's true.
But I think still we can give general principles and I think Lou is quite right.
This is the whole thing.
A married person can become a monk.
There's no requirement for divorce to become a monk.
That itself should show you that there's no problem with being married.
But on the other hand, there could be a million reasons here.
This person could have a legitimate reason for needing a divorce.
Who knows?
Maybe there's some law in their country.
America has some crazy laws.
And, I don't know, that was a cheap joke.
Cheap shot.
It wasn't cheap.
Yeah, you're a Canadian as well.
We have this about us.
I lost my train of thought because the broadcast ended.
Anyway.
That's where your train was.
Yeah.
Something about laws.
Okay.
I'm going to give a thank you to the people in the YouTube videos.
Oh, and I'm going to quit this.