1
00:00:00,065 --> 00:00:04,350
member of our community, William, says, I want to get a divorce.

2
00:00:05,031 --> 00:00:06,032
My wife will suffer.

3
00:00:06,172 --> 00:00:07,774
She says that she will kill herself.

4
00:00:08,835 --> 00:00:12,819
If she does suffer or kills herself, I fear it will affect my practice.

5
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,543
What can I tell her to minimize her suffering?

6
00:00:18,906 --> 00:00:20,168
That's really significant.

7
00:00:20,508 --> 00:00:21,589
It's a significant question.

8
00:00:25,193 --> 00:00:27,456
Well, you could start off by telling her

9
00:00:27,740 --> 00:00:28,921
It wasn't her fault.

10
00:00:28,961 --> 00:00:30,242
You want the divorce.

11
00:00:30,502 --> 00:00:35,487
You're breaking the commitment that you're really the bad guy.

12
00:00:35,547 --> 00:00:46,656
And maybe she might pity you instead of pitying herself for being brought into that relationship under the premise that it was for the rest of her life.

13
00:00:47,697 --> 00:00:48,898
Maybe that would be helpful.

14
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:57,325
Logically, if she commits suicide, kill herself, that's going to be her fault.

15
00:00:58,418 --> 00:01:26,485
Well, I would suggest before getting a divorce perhaps doing a meditation course because we had a student once here in our group and she was about to get a divorce

16
00:01:26,903 --> 00:01:31,028
She had one kid and went on the way.

17
00:01:31,969 --> 00:01:34,192
And she came to practice meditation.

18
00:01:34,372 --> 00:01:38,377
And then after the meditation course, she said everything just changed.

19
00:01:39,118 --> 00:01:43,162
And she decided that there was no need for a divorce.

20
00:01:43,943 --> 00:01:45,705
That they were already happy together.

21
00:01:45,725 --> 00:01:49,690
So that would be my suggestion.

22
00:01:49,750 --> 00:01:52,894
If the person asking the question would like to be

23
00:01:53,701 --> 00:01:58,226
a full basic meditation course that might change things for him.

24
00:01:59,968 --> 00:02:10,720
I was going to say something very similar or start very similar because we can't miss that premise that you don't have to, you know, there is another option.

25
00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:13,222
Divorce isn't the only answer.

26
00:02:15,064 --> 00:02:20,430
So often we create problems for ourselves by us making assumptions like this.

27
00:02:20,591 --> 00:02:22,312
Well, I have to get divorced, so what do I do?

28
00:02:22,332 --> 00:02:22,813
Well,

29
00:02:23,283 --> 00:02:24,624
Do you have to get divorced?

30
00:02:26,066 --> 00:02:31,592
I mean, even for example, a person doesn't have to become divorced to become a monk.

31
00:02:31,832 --> 00:02:39,040
Why I think it's significant, beyond what Alex was saying, is that it doesn't mean anything.

32
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,342
It doesn't have to mean anything.

33
00:02:42,063 --> 00:02:43,144
Suicide?

34
00:02:43,725 --> 00:02:44,345
No, divorce.

35
00:02:44,666 --> 00:02:45,607
Divorce or marriage.

36
00:02:46,608 --> 00:02:46,708
Okay.

37
00:02:47,549 --> 00:02:57,981
whether you are married or divorced for a Buddhist unless there's some practical reason that I don't see is

38
00:02:59,125 --> 00:03:04,772
really a matter of convenience and from the sounds of it is very important to her.

39
00:03:04,792 --> 00:03:09,557
When you're dealing with people who are suicidal things like this really make the difference.

40
00:03:10,378 --> 00:03:26,837
I mean you could not divorce her and just say well I need to spend some time on my own and might find that she's actually far more rational than if you were to say well we need to get divorced but we can still be together and you know for example

41
00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:55,356
be together because the symbolism is very important to the person you know this is a person who is obviously very much attached to self and therefore thinks that by killing themselves they're going to end their suffering and so on they're in a state where these kind of things can smallest things can set them off so even if you don't even if you're sure like you know it would be nice if the problem could just go away and you could live your life continue living but if you're somehow sure that you're incompatible with this person

42
00:03:57,108 --> 00:04:02,633
it may be that there are more skillful ways to go about this than these cuts.

43
00:04:02,693 --> 00:04:11,101
And it comes back to, sorry to just go on a little bit more, it comes back to how Buddhists always, people always do this when they approach Buddhism.

44
00:04:11,221 --> 00:04:14,484
They try to find a trick that's going to solve their problems.

45
00:04:15,345 --> 00:04:19,889
I'm going to run off to the forest and become a monk and that's going to solve all my problems.

46
00:04:19,989 --> 00:04:25,334
Or I'm going to give up all my possessions and that's going to solve my problems.

47
00:04:25,414 --> 00:04:26,575
Or I'm going to get a divorce.

48
00:04:27,635 --> 00:04:52,832
you this isn't the answer and often it's much more skillful to to stay with the problem and to to deal with the the realities because divorce is not a reality that's a fairly uh it was just a striking question because it's it sounds so life and death yeah so you have to play no no no most of the

49
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,562
It takes care and caution.

50
00:04:56,743 --> 00:04:58,365
I was going to ask one thing.

51
00:04:58,786 --> 00:05:22,363
For the vow holders in the Buddha Dharma, in my tradition where I took, the vow to take refuge and the precepts go that we're not to give up the triple gem for even the cost of our life or a joke, and that's one of the vows I took.

52
00:05:23,052 --> 00:05:51,388
So, you know, I can understand, for instance, myself, or maybe even, you know, yourself, that if we were confronted, like, let's say, an Islamic takeover, and we're told that we must renounce the triple gem and become Muslim and go to the mosque and everything, and if we don't deny the triple gem,

53
00:05:51,858 --> 00:06:21,004
then and the dharma then we must face death i would i would think that a lot of the ordained would say well you're gonna have to kill me and i i can sympathize with this woman in if she's took those that sense of vows on that level and unfortunate that uh in the worldly sense of marriage

54
00:06:21,389 --> 00:06:50,299
those vows are bilateral they're not unilateral like they are in the buddha dharma i make that vow with myself you know it has nothing to do with if somebody else decides that they don't want to keep their vow you know it is different it's a lot more worldly but i i can still sympathize with that feeling of well i i've taken these vows for my life you know i guess my life now has no

55
00:06:50,819 --> 00:06:52,641
meaning or no worse.

56
00:06:52,801 --> 00:06:56,445
I cannot, you know, I have to now sacrifice my life.

57
00:06:57,026 --> 00:07:00,590
That is where the danger comes in.

58
00:07:00,810 --> 00:07:03,714
But I can sympathize with her, you know, I can.

59
00:07:04,995 --> 00:07:08,239
Yeah, but if they divorce, there's going to be less suffering for them.

60
00:07:10,021 --> 00:07:12,504
Clearly, one of them don't want to be together.

61
00:07:13,024 --> 00:07:19,191
So if they just divorce, there's going to be less suffering.

62
00:07:19,832 --> 00:07:20,573
And if

63
00:07:21,245 --> 00:07:50,712
and first of all, psychology shows if somebody talks about suicide most of the time don't commit suicide so the cases of suicide look different yeah but there's an insensitivity there Lucas that you're not being sensitive to this woman's plight I don't see how divorce is going to help them what is going to help them is to give up their clinging

64
00:07:51,012 --> 00:07:52,274
Alex was perfectly right.

65
00:07:52,775 --> 00:07:54,678
Better than get a divorce, go for meditation.

66
00:07:54,738 --> 00:07:55,439
That's what you need.

67
00:07:55,459 --> 00:07:56,260
That's what she needs.

68
00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:57,121
That's what we all need.

69
00:07:57,642 --> 00:07:58,704
We don't need divorces.

70
00:07:58,744 --> 00:07:59,705
We don't need marriages.

71
00:08:00,887 --> 00:08:01,628
I think it'd be funny.

72
00:08:01,828 --> 00:08:09,961
What if somehow, for some reason, you could put me in a position where it was just so obvious that I was going to hurt lots of people if I didn't get married as a monk.

73
00:08:10,942 --> 00:08:12,805
Maybe I could even do it because it's meaningless.

74
00:08:13,466 --> 00:08:14,928
I couldn't kiss the bride at the end.

75
00:08:15,109 --> 00:08:19,315
No, it's just a ridiculous example, but

76
00:08:19,295 --> 00:08:22,318
My only point is there's nothing to a divorce.

77
00:08:22,398 --> 00:08:25,622
If it means so much to her, put it aside for now.

78
00:08:25,662 --> 00:08:28,144
That shouldn't be your biggest concern.

79
00:08:28,485 --> 00:08:30,146
Yeah, really.

80
00:08:30,186 --> 00:08:48,205
I mean, about what I've said, divorce, I didn't mean, you know, just if they don't want to be with each other, then why stick to this?

81
00:08:49,062 --> 00:09:16,504
cold she does that's the thing she's really she's ready to kill herself to stay with him yeah but he doesn't so well you don't feel sympathy for her or empathy for her she's yeah she's very attached she suffered but she suffers isn't she well she's suffering if he leaves yeah and he's gonna suffer if she if he don't well he's a meditator he can take anything or more than her anyway

82
00:09:17,294 --> 00:09:22,358
He's not going to kill himself if he has to stay with her, is he?

83
00:09:25,521 --> 00:09:25,881
No.

84
00:09:26,642 --> 00:09:28,183
I mean, I know William is one of us.

85
00:09:28,944 --> 00:09:33,848
He's not done a meditation course, but he started meditating.

86
00:09:33,988 --> 00:09:34,729
I have a question.

87
00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:37,791
Is it related or should I quit this video?

88
00:09:37,811 --> 00:09:39,513
Because we're recording these one by one.

89
00:09:40,394 --> 00:09:41,855
Yes, it's perfectly related.

90
00:09:41,915 --> 00:09:42,495
Okay, go for it.

91
00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:46,879
My question for Lucas is, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

92
00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:50,430
I get it.

93
00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:50,590
Sorry?

94
00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:53,212
What is the sound of one hand clapping?

95
00:09:54,193 --> 00:09:58,236
Like, you cannot just... You cannot just clap with one hand, right?

96
00:09:59,598 --> 00:10:07,525
So, like, if there's an argument between two people... Okay, okay, no smart voice cracks.

97
00:10:07,545 --> 00:10:08,225
Yeah.

98
00:10:09,006 --> 00:10:11,588
There's an argument between two people, right?

99
00:10:11,688 --> 00:10:15,171
That's something like two hands... Yeah, but I tried to explain the law.

100
00:10:15,311 --> 00:10:16,292
It's just a delusion.

101
00:10:16,312 --> 00:10:17,313
Hold on a second.

102
00:10:17,333 --> 00:10:18,334
The law is a delusion.

103
00:10:18,975 --> 00:10:19,515
Hold on one second.

104
00:10:20,221 --> 00:10:20,882
Hold on one sec.

105
00:10:21,322 --> 00:10:27,968
So, you know, if there's an argument between two people, what is the root of the, what is the cause of the argument?

106
00:10:28,648 --> 00:10:31,251
The cause of the argument is attachment to self.

107
00:10:31,691 --> 00:10:32,232
I am right.

108
00:10:34,454 --> 00:10:34,594
Hmm.

109
00:10:34,614 --> 00:10:37,276
So, is two men... Hey, hey, tell you something.

110
00:10:37,616 --> 00:10:46,925
Yeah, I was, uh, I'm constantly arguing with my family and... Hold on, let me finish for a sec.

111
00:10:46,945 --> 00:10:49,587
So, so, if, if

112
00:10:49,887 --> 00:10:58,035
if both of them are arguing, then the solution has to be to take away the attachment to self.

113
00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:01,118
Reduce the attachment to self on one side.

114
00:11:01,739 --> 00:11:04,181
And then you can't clap.

115
00:11:04,221 --> 00:11:05,222
You can't have an argument.

116
00:11:06,424 --> 00:11:08,165
That's true.

117
00:11:08,305 --> 00:11:11,148
There's a little bit more to that thing.

118
00:11:11,769 --> 00:11:14,131
And the problem is this.

119
00:11:14,832 --> 00:11:18,956
You know, it's not even just argumentation.

120
00:11:18,976 --> 00:11:19,877
It's even in

121
00:11:20,060 --> 00:11:49,273
the peaceful pursuits because you know while one person is trying to be happy and another person is trying to be happy you know this is where conflicts do come in so to say that the root of the problem is argumentation really may not be the truth maybe the root of the problem is happiness and the perception of what is happy because

122
00:11:49,608 --> 00:12:05,691
You know, you are completely happy with your companion so long as you're on the path and you're both going at the same speed and nobody's looking in the other direction and nobody's pushing or pulling or lagging behind.

123
00:12:05,711 --> 00:12:05,991
I don't know.

124
00:12:07,434 --> 00:12:16,847
But when that happens, all of a sudden you go, oh, this is no longer part of my happiness.

125
00:12:17,873 --> 00:12:22,140
And that's when you start feeling the aversion.

126
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,485
Yeah, but it seems like I look at a totally different case.

127
00:12:25,505 --> 00:12:29,551
I see the man who don't want to be with her, and he suffers.

128
00:12:29,771 --> 00:12:33,717
And I see a woman that she suffers because she doesn't want to be with her.

129
00:12:34,298 --> 00:12:35,781
And she will suffer otherwise.

130
00:12:35,801 --> 00:12:37,864
No, no, I don't think you understand.

131
00:12:37,984 --> 00:12:39,446
She wants very much to be with her.

132
00:12:39,466 --> 00:12:46,497
What I see is two people perfectly happy creating this delusion that they're going to be happier

133
00:12:46,915 --> 00:12:49,238
on the other side of the fence.

134
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:50,981
Marriage is a delusion.

135
00:12:51,001 --> 00:12:52,843
They're gonna be happy with each other.

136
00:12:53,444 --> 00:12:54,465
That's a delusion.

137
00:12:55,547 --> 00:13:01,114
Marriage is a conventional agreement between two people.

138
00:13:01,515 --> 00:13:03,337
It's not really a delusion.

139
00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:09,025
Maybe the happiness that you want to project and foresee in it

140
00:13:09,393 --> 00:13:12,317
You know, the happy ever after and the sunset.

141
00:13:13,038 --> 00:13:15,542
Maybe that's the delusion, but no.

142
00:13:15,962 --> 00:13:25,356
Marriage is a contract between two people, and it should be taken rationally and with a lot of forethought.

143
00:13:25,376 --> 00:13:26,457
It's not a delusion.

144
00:13:26,858 --> 00:13:29,241
It's actually a contract with another person.

145
00:13:29,643 --> 00:13:34,148
of your intentions on how... It is delusion, it is delusion.

146
00:13:34,429 --> 00:13:38,794
No, he's saying, I think Lucas is saying that the delusion is that you could find happiness.

147
00:13:38,814 --> 00:13:40,015
Because that woman wants to commit suicide.

148
00:13:40,035 --> 00:13:41,137
That is a delusion.

149
00:13:41,417 --> 00:13:43,339
The deluded person is going to say that.

150
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,885
Because she thinks she's going to be happy in a marriage.

151
00:13:48,806 --> 00:13:50,568
But the happy is inside.

152
00:13:51,609 --> 00:13:53,612
But the question, Lucas, is how are you going to help her?

153
00:13:54,733 --> 00:13:55,754
You think you're going to help her?

154
00:13:56,055 --> 00:13:57,176
How are you going to do?

155
00:13:57,236 --> 00:13:58,297
What are you going to do?

156
00:13:58,317 --> 00:13:58,958
If she...

157
00:13:59,393 --> 00:14:02,817
if you want to cut the tail of the cat, what are you going to do?

158
00:14:02,837 --> 00:14:06,722
Are you going to slice it bit by bit, or are you going to cut the whole tail?

159
00:14:07,103 --> 00:14:08,685
I disagree.

160
00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:10,147
I think that's a bad example.

161
00:14:11,208 --> 00:14:15,794
Yeah, because there are only two choices in that example.

162
00:14:15,854 --> 00:14:28,911
Nowadays, I would say get some good stem cells for the cat, and instead of cutting off the tail, just remove that little bit, and then put on the stem cells and regrow the tail.

163
00:14:29,009 --> 00:14:58,864
yeah I think if you're if you know if you want to have to or you know you have to get rid of the problem from the whole problem yeah but you see it it has nothing to do with the divorce the problem is this woman's attachment and I disagree totally with the marriage yeah okay if a person is

164
00:15:00,616 --> 00:15:05,091
Suppose a person is addicted to heroin.

165
00:15:05,543 --> 00:15:07,906
Yeah, but we talk about this case.

166
00:15:08,207 --> 00:15:09,589
We talk about the person.

167
00:15:09,729 --> 00:15:14,876
But any case, I mean, attachment is not something that you can remove with a slight strike of the hand.

168
00:15:15,517 --> 00:15:19,042
Her attachment is not going to go away because he divorces her.

169
00:15:20,344 --> 00:15:23,048
Well, you know, you have to give up.

170
00:15:23,068 --> 00:15:32,361
If you could just cut off the person's attachment in one strike, like you can cut off a cat's tail, then by all means, cut it all off at once.

171
00:15:32,381 --> 00:15:33,222
But

172
00:15:33,202 --> 00:15:36,388
This is trying to find shortcuts.

173
00:15:36,468 --> 00:15:42,099
You're trying to, you're applying the wrong solution to the problem.

174
00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:48,852
The problem of attachment is something incredibly deep and difficult to deal with and to heal.

175
00:15:49,272 --> 00:15:51,116
It doesn't come from things like divorce.

176
00:15:51,136 --> 00:15:53,601
Oh yes, let's make her suffer.

177
00:15:53,641 --> 00:15:56,526
Let's take her away from her attachment.

178
00:15:56,978 --> 00:16:21,636
um you know artificially take her away and and somehow expect her to heal people don't do that they they can become poisoned as a result i agree that there's something to what you say and that you you you have to um you know she has to make a a break somehow but it's not going to come from kim divorcing her

179
00:16:21,987 --> 00:16:28,576
It will come from him being clear that this is not how, you know, for example, this is not where, you know, it's about the truth.

180
00:16:28,596 --> 00:16:29,798
The truth is not divorce.

181
00:16:30,359 --> 00:16:33,202
You can't divorce someone and say, there, you see, this is how things should be.

182
00:16:33,563 --> 00:16:34,604
Because they're not how it should be.

183
00:16:34,644 --> 00:16:36,187
Divorce, marriage is not how it should be.

184
00:16:36,647 --> 00:16:42,635
It comes from showing her that this attachment that we have is only causing us suffering.

185
00:16:42,655 --> 00:16:43,757
It has nothing to do with divorce.

186
00:16:43,817 --> 00:16:47,983
It's sitting down with her and saying, you know, look, we really want to be happy.

187
00:16:48,243 --> 00:16:49,665
Let's find a way to be happy.

188
00:16:49,645 --> 00:17:00,019
I've had a meditator recently who I'm dead sure was in love with me because, you know, as buff and handsome as I am.

189
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:06,327
And why I know, I mean, it wasn't ego at all.

190
00:17:06,387 --> 00:17:12,936
It was that she was really persistent in her questions, in her words, in her looks, in everything.

191
00:17:13,456 --> 00:17:15,779
And I've dealt with this before.

192
00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:18,542
I've had women almost propose to me.

193
00:17:18,982 --> 00:17:21,265
It's something to do with being a teacher.

194
00:17:21,285 --> 00:17:26,010
You really get under their... I mean, it's such an intimate relationship.

195
00:17:26,771 --> 00:17:31,156
And that's exactly the point, is that it should be an intimate relationship.

196
00:17:31,817 --> 00:17:35,601
But it is a pure intimate relationship.

197
00:17:35,641 --> 00:17:37,783
The relationship is not based on attachment.

198
00:17:37,803 --> 00:17:39,345
So you sit down with these people.

199
00:17:39,950 --> 00:18:02,464
and you you you go with them you say yes you know love is a good thing and you teach them and yes yes you know yes so isn't it you lead them through it without attachment yes so um let's say the break the delusion so he should break the delusion to in order to help her so she

200
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:30,308
cheech that create operate you can't break it was and you have to you have to understand create understanding is she going to understand right away like immediately understand because in divorce is you know he's gonna understand it she's gonna send if he sits down with them and leads us through it or someone else suffering for him on the other hand work with a real important point i think you know this is what

201
00:18:31,874 --> 00:18:58,827
Bhikkhu is trying to really relate to you is that see whether or not they have this title marriage or not you know it doesn't matter because the whole point is to have good relationships with everyone whatever definition we have

202
00:18:59,161 --> 00:19:13,656
So your idea of saying, cut them out, cut them out of your life, it's not really a solution because it's not addressing, you know, even a fundamental problem.

203
00:19:13,876 --> 00:19:24,386
Okay, maybe... Okay, what kind of solution is not... The point is, that I'm trying to state, is that, well, you know, maybe they can't live with each other right now.

204
00:19:24,466 --> 00:19:26,789
Maybe they do get a divorce.

205
00:19:27,309 --> 00:19:27,970
You follow?

206
00:19:28,456 --> 00:19:45,721
But the idea that you have to isolate the other person, cut them off as if they are a cancer or a rotten body part, that is not really should be our approach to having difficult situations with other people.

207
00:19:46,021 --> 00:19:46,522
Very well said.

208
00:19:46,802 --> 00:19:53,692
And this is what, you know, is trying to be conveyed to you.

209
00:19:54,513 --> 00:19:57,838
And that is difficult because, you know,

210
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:28,112
you are actually reinforcing that whole attraction repulsion doctrine which we're trying to convey well you know that is part of the fundamental problem the fundamental problem is this whole idea divorce and cutting off and well if I'm cut off I kill myself and you know the truth of the matter is you know maybe they

211
00:20:28,801 --> 00:20:33,107
If they really care about each other, they're not going to cut each other off at all.

212
00:20:33,527 --> 00:20:36,391
They're going to make the proper transitions in life.

213
00:20:37,893 --> 00:20:43,480
With each other, even if that with each other takes on the label of divorce.

214
00:20:44,141 --> 00:20:48,446
And it's responsible of him to convey that.

215
00:20:49,007 --> 00:20:55,315
Because if indeed he's a practitioner, and if he indeed loved her, and they were friends...

216
00:20:55,413 --> 00:21:25,352
well we don't know these things but he's asking he's asking us as practitioners and he's a practitioner himself what would be the best good and the best good is to not sever relationships because uh wasn't it earlier even today that uh you know bonti here was saying

217
00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:50,243
repeating a quote from a suture where the buddha said or it was yesterday where it was actually good friendships that was the point of the teaching today yeah so yeah right so to cut off or even have that mind state is really what we have to circumnavigate away from i think because we don't want

218
00:21:50,898 --> 00:22:08,434
to take that attitude regardless of whether that just give me a second regardless of whether you know who's right and wrong in this situation I think there's the philosophical question that Lucas is asking or idea that he's presenting is that

219
00:22:09,427 --> 00:22:12,811
the idea of cutting it off immediately.

220
00:22:12,871 --> 00:22:21,380
So if there were some way to effect an immediate end to suffering or to solve the problem immediately, we should go for that.

221
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:34,033
My point, and I think to some extent, I don't want to speak for him, but to some extent Lucas's point is that it has to go, that the problems are much more complicated than that.

222
00:22:34,469 --> 00:22:38,796
and have to be dealt with much more slowly.

223
00:22:38,856 --> 00:22:43,965
I mean, it's one thing you learn in practicing Buddhism is that you're not going to become enlightened tomorrow.

224
00:22:44,005 --> 00:22:44,646
Not likely.

225
00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:45,627
Some people do.

226
00:22:46,208 --> 00:22:49,153
For most of us, our problems don't just go away.

227
00:22:49,674 --> 00:22:51,878
You do one meditation course and think you're enlightened.

228
00:22:51,998 --> 00:22:55,023
You go back home and a couple of days later you're yelling at your parents again.

229
00:22:55,083 --> 00:23:01,253
The problems that we have inside are incredibly complicated.

230
00:23:01,621 --> 00:23:22,384
And they're compounded by lifetime after lifetime of, you know, we're just messes of tricks and complications that are going to take an incredible amount of care to do away with.

231
00:23:22,444 --> 00:23:27,510
So the point I think that we're trying to make is you're not

232
00:23:27,777 --> 00:23:56,265
untying the knot by by doing that you're just you know cutting the string which isn't a solution to the problem because you cut the string you lose the rope hey you don't have to agree uh that's my opinion i'm just saying my opinion that's what i would do hundred percent because i would say myself a lot of suffering the first a lot of suffering and because we all know that uh that

233
00:23:56,617 --> 00:24:23,265
uh... you know you might be a lot and uh... after few months you're not in love anymore and he thought it was the way there is that there is going to be much less suffering for them no but lou said very clearly that they may come to divorce but that shouldn't be the first step i don't say like divorce divorce on the paper i'm just saying that

234
00:24:23,701 --> 00:24:27,106
if they just let it go, give it up.

235
00:24:27,126 --> 00:24:27,927
If it doesn't work, let it go.

236
00:24:28,007 --> 00:24:29,670
But she's not at that state yet.

237
00:24:29,890 --> 00:24:33,035
You have to get her to a state of being able to let go.

238
00:24:33,075 --> 00:24:34,998
Right now she's quite obviously not letting go.

239
00:24:35,038 --> 00:24:41,027
She's quite the opposite, clinging more and more to the point where she might cling to the extent of killing herself.

240
00:24:41,047 --> 00:24:48,699
So I think divorce is a little bit further down the line than you're suggesting.

241
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:52,965
I think the point is that not rushing to...

242
00:24:53,333 --> 00:24:55,116
Not rushing to that conclusion.

243
00:24:55,316 --> 00:25:00,604
I prefer to cut details straight away rather than beat by beat.

244
00:25:00,624 --> 00:25:03,308
But preference is not a reason to do.

245
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:04,691
Preference may be wrong.

246
00:25:05,011 --> 00:25:05,692
So be careful.

247
00:25:06,754 --> 00:25:12,523
But would you say, you know, if someone said to you, there could be other options, would you be willing to consider those?

248
00:25:13,204 --> 00:25:15,868
Would you still want to cut it off right away?

249
00:25:16,429 --> 00:25:19,273
Someone said, well, maybe there's a few other options to consider.

250
00:25:19,979 --> 00:25:23,483
Oh, speaking of cutting off, it's coming up to four hours.

251
00:25:24,545 --> 00:25:31,133
Somebody said, somebody said, thinking about things is very difficult, but doing them is very easy.

252
00:25:31,153 --> 00:25:34,497
Maybe we just do this and stop thinking about it, it'll be easier.

253
00:25:34,878 --> 00:25:37,821
So just stop thinking about divorce, stop thinking about marriage.

254
00:25:39,383 --> 00:25:42,828
Just do everything to stop suffering.

255
00:25:43,128 --> 00:25:44,270
That's an interesting theory.

256
00:25:44,350 --> 00:25:47,033
I don't necessarily subscribe to it myself, but

257
00:25:48,835 --> 00:26:17,121
just because something is easy to do doesn't make it right just because something is difficult doesn't make it wrong even thinking and talking about it because it's suffering not necessarily sometimes talking about it brings up an alternative helps do away with wrong views the Buddha said talking about the Dhamma in a timely manner or from time to time

258
00:26:17,405 --> 00:26:18,567
is a great blessing.

259
00:26:19,508 --> 00:26:21,551
It's one of the things that does away with wrong view.

260
00:26:21,631 --> 00:26:24,435
One of the five things is conversation.

261
00:26:25,917 --> 00:26:32,365
You know, I do want to bring up this sutra known as the Single Vata Sutra.

262
00:26:32,706 --> 00:26:34,348
Maybe you're familiar with it.

263
00:26:34,609 --> 00:26:35,430
Oh, for sure.

264
00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:44,442
Where it does describe that we do have familial obligations once we become, you know, if we choose the laid life,

265
00:26:45,434 --> 00:27:02,670
those obligations that we have to wives and children, and even our parents, and in the case of being married, even our in-laws, they're to be treated with deferential respect.

266
00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:12,799
So, you know, the idea of cutting off these relationships, actually, the Buddha says, is a karmic downfall.

267
00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:15,441
You know, because we

268
00:27:17,362 --> 00:27:19,546
we engaged in them?

269
00:27:19,986 --> 00:27:26,457
You know, did we not engage with them with some degree of knowing what we were getting involved with?

270
00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:28,721
Well, yes.

271
00:27:28,781 --> 00:27:32,026
Well, you could think, yeah, you have the rights to your opinion.

272
00:27:32,427 --> 00:27:33,649
What I say is probably

273
00:27:34,388 --> 00:27:35,950
I agree with that.

274
00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:37,352
You could say, that's wrong.

275
00:27:37,532 --> 00:27:40,976
That's how I said that I would do.

276
00:27:41,036 --> 00:27:48,525
If I can cut in, someone is asking us something that is quite confrontational and we'll have to respond to.

277
00:27:49,065 --> 00:27:54,892
How to talk about these persons when you don't even have enough knowledge about their personalities?

278
00:27:55,473 --> 00:27:59,378
You can talk and argue against each other's ideas here, but it won't help the two.

279
00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:03,062
I think we've got five minutes.

280
00:28:03,835 --> 00:28:13,223
I disagree because I think we're trying to give general principles of whether to rush or not to rush into things.

281
00:28:13,303 --> 00:28:17,997
So if we take these two people out of the question, we're talking about whether one should

282
00:28:18,398 --> 00:28:46,836
should follow one's desired course of path immediately or whether one should be a little bit more cautious about it and I would say rushing into things when there are obvious drawbacks to it is a potential for disaster because you say the person will be happier after they've done it that's not always the case and that's borne out by experience I know people who have

283
00:28:47,423 --> 00:29:00,140
cut everything off in their lives, come to meditate and find that they're totally lost and have no ability to meditate, after a week they run away and go home and never hear from them again because they didn't cut anything off.

284
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:06,428
They weren't actually able to... You know, like this man, here's a wonderful example, this monk who cut off his penis.

285
00:29:07,505 --> 00:29:09,547
And you know what the Buddha said to him?

286
00:29:09,567 --> 00:29:11,349
This actually happened.

287
00:29:11,369 --> 00:29:12,110
It's in the Vinaya.

288
00:29:12,790 --> 00:29:15,613
He had so much lust that he cut off his penis.

289
00:29:16,094 --> 00:29:22,100
And the Buddha said about him, the Buddha said to the monks, this monk has cut off one thing when he should have cut off another.

290
00:29:23,741 --> 00:29:25,863
And then he laid down a rule against cutting off your penis.

291
00:29:27,945 --> 00:29:32,550
True story.

292
00:29:33,728 --> 00:29:38,875
Okay, I think we're in five minutes where our broadcast is going to end, so we can just keep going until it does.

293
00:29:40,097 --> 00:29:40,878
But thanks, everyone.

294
00:29:40,898 --> 00:29:41,739
This has been great.

295
00:29:43,001 --> 00:29:46,606
Real discussion and I think quite helpful.

296
00:29:46,646 --> 00:29:51,733
Some of those later questions were hopefully of great use to people.

297
00:29:52,915 --> 00:29:59,664
I do want to make one comment, though, about the whole marriage argument.

298
00:29:59,744 --> 00:30:00,806
It just hit me.

299
00:30:01,647 --> 00:30:02,368
Well, you know,

300
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:08,654
The desire that's being talked about is actually the divorce.

301
00:30:09,635 --> 00:30:16,903
The marriage is fine because there's no longer any desire to be married.

302
00:30:17,603 --> 00:30:20,066
So the marriage itself isn't even a problem.

303
00:30:20,667 --> 00:30:27,734
Now this guy is saying, oh, I'm going to be happy if I can only fulfill this new desire.

304
00:30:28,435 --> 00:30:33,520
And when we really understand the doctrine,

305
00:30:34,006 --> 00:30:40,915
You know, oh, you know, that is where we really don't know where happiness is.

306
00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:44,780
You know, is he really going to be happier getting a divorce?

307
00:30:45,281 --> 00:30:46,883
That's the real question.

308
00:30:47,363 --> 00:30:59,599
Is he really going to be happy with the potential of getting a divorce, having his wife kill herself, and then realize, oh, he really never wanted a divorce in the first place.

309
00:30:59,679 --> 00:31:01,802
Now he misses everything he loved.

310
00:31:03,233 --> 00:31:13,648
He misunderstood no longer having desire, but just his marriage was just life as normal every day.

311
00:31:13,688 --> 00:31:18,675
Well, he took that as being boredom and not realizing that that was actually happiness.

312
00:31:20,057 --> 00:31:21,659
Yeah, but we don't know these people.

313
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,322
We shouldn't even talk about it.

314
00:31:23,342 --> 00:31:24,243
That would be tragic.

315
00:31:25,805 --> 00:31:32,615
You know, the reason is because it's not that person.

316
00:31:32,796 --> 00:31:33,156
It's

317
00:31:33,507 --> 00:31:58,418
it's the same story over and over and over again with a thousand a million faces i'm not happy i'll be happy with this yeah it's the same story yeah but these people could be serious or they might be childish 99.99 they're childish we're trying we're trying our best and i think we should have a rule

318
00:31:58,870 --> 00:32:03,914
to talk in generalities rather than to try to give too much specific advice.

319
00:32:04,356 --> 00:32:06,687
If you're in America, you could be sued for doing that.

320
00:32:07,392 --> 00:32:14,399
We're just talking general and we should always refer back to Buddhism.

321
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:22,387
We shouldn't ask questions like we don't know these people because we shouldn't try to know them or try to give them specific advice.

322
00:32:22,427 --> 00:32:23,449
It's true.

323
00:32:24,269 --> 00:32:28,253
But I think still we can give general principles and I think Lou is quite right.

324
00:32:28,314 --> 00:32:31,116
This is the whole thing.

325
00:32:31,136 --> 00:32:36,522
A married person can become a monk.

326
00:32:36,923 --> 00:32:42,694
There's no requirement for divorce to become a monk.

327
00:32:43,435 --> 00:32:48,244
That itself should show you that there's no problem with being married.

328
00:32:49,447 --> 00:32:51,651
But on the other hand, there could be a million reasons here.

329
00:32:51,671 --> 00:32:55,177
This person could have a legitimate reason for needing a divorce.

330
00:32:55,237 --> 00:32:55,598
Who knows?

331
00:32:55,678 --> 00:32:57,502
Maybe there's some law in their country.

332
00:32:58,323 --> 00:32:59,826
America has some crazy laws.

333
00:33:01,291 --> 00:33:04,938
And, I don't know, that was a cheap joke.

334
00:33:07,323 --> 00:33:07,844
Cheap shot.

335
00:33:07,984 --> 00:33:09,347
It wasn't cheap.

336
00:33:09,367 --> 00:33:10,750
Yeah, you're a Canadian as well.

337
00:33:11,211 --> 00:33:12,153
We have this about us.

338
00:33:15,780 --> 00:33:18,104
I lost my train of thought because the broadcast ended.

339
00:33:18,145 --> 00:33:19,928
Anyway.

340
00:33:19,948 --> 00:33:22,153
That's where your train was.

341
00:33:22,794 --> 00:33:22,894
Yeah.

342
00:33:26,637 --> 00:33:27,563
Something about laws.

343
00:33:28,147 --> 00:33:28,429
Okay.

344
00:33:28,832 --> 00:33:31,350
I'm going to give a thank you to the people in the YouTube videos.

345
00:33:32,618 --> 00:33:34,048
Oh, and I'm going to quit this.